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OOTB's Political Thread . ..

That innovation is largely happening because of "America". Smart phones, 3d printing, EVs, genetic modification, etc are all great innovations, but our debt is ballooning.

And trickle-down sounded good in the Reagan years, but it's a myth.
Fair point. But inflation-adjusted how many centi-billionaires were there? Or how many were there worth 10+ billionaires?

- The richest top 0.1% has seen its share of American wealth nearly triple from 7% to 20% between the late 1970s and 2016, while the bottom 90% has seen its share of wealth decline from 35% to 25% in that same period. And it greatly worsened after 2017 tax cuts for the rich.
- The richest 130,000 families in America now hold nearly as much wealth as the bottom 117 million families combined.

There are ways to prevent the stifle of innovation while also helping tackle national debt. Instead of taxing unrealized cap gains someone had the idea of taxing 6% annually of "wealth" over a billion, and 2% wealth over 50 million (this would be a million that someone would need to cough-up).
I'm certainly onboard with doing something to de-lever the country. It's what any well-run business would do if it was in debt up to its eyeballs the way the US is. There's a tradeoff in what is "fair" and what is "in the best interest of the average American". Taxing everyone with a last name beginning with "A" at 90% and keeping everyone else's taxes the same would be an overall benefit to the average American - but no one would argue it's "fair" to target one group disproportionally like that. It's more well accepted to do that to the group of people that are multimillionaires or billionaires, because they can afford it, but I struggle to see how that's any more fair.

In theory I can get on board with taxing the ultra-wealthy more, for the benefit of the country, even though I don't think it's a fair practice. More people would be on board if there was some assurance that the money raised would be going towards paying down the ballooning debt. Something like: we'll raise $1T over the next X years via wealth taxes and put that money directly towards the national debt. However, in practice, we know that the $1T raised would be divvied up to other interests, say, $200B to Ukraine, $200B to fight climate change, $200B to social programs, $200B squandered away in various grifts and leakages as is customary any time the US government gets money, and maybe $200B at best would find its way to pay down the national debt.
 
I have to agree. If you CAN take money from someone you SHOULD take it. It isn't fair otherwise. And what would they be missing? A slightly smaller yacht? A few less acres for that second home to sit on? A little less money to invest in this country? A little less incentive to make such investments? This is certainly progressive thinking.
Again, 2% of 50 million is just 1 million. Making someone a 49 millionaire instead of 50 millionaire isn't going to cause them to skip Vail for for a staycation.

20% of 100 million is massive, but the 80 millionaire also isn't going to eschew filet mignon for tripe.
 
here we go again. Too much in debt? Just get more money to pay a tiny bit of it off just to say you did. Don't do anything meaningful about spending. Acknowledge that the patient is bleeding to death, but just give give him more blood and don't try to stop the bleeding. There'll always be more blood, and the rich have too much anyway. You gotta love that progressive thinking.
It is going to require both. I don't understand why people are so opposed to insanely wealthy needing to cough up their fair share. Taxes have been a part of our government (and almost all governments) for awhile.
 
I'm certainly onboard with doing something to de-lever the country. It's what any well-run business would do if it was in debt up to its eyeballs the way the US is. There's a tradeoff in what is "fair" and what is "in the best interest of the average American". Taxing everyone with a last name beginning with "A" at 90% and keeping everyone else's taxes the same would be an overall benefit to the average American - but no one would argue it's "fair" to target one group disproportionally like that. It's more well accepted to do that to the group of people that are multimillionaires or billionaires, because they can afford it, but I struggle to see how that's any more fair.

In theory I can get on board with taxing the ultra-wealthy more, for the benefit of the country, even though I don't think it's a fair practice. More people would get on board with this ultra-wealthy tax if there was some assurance that the money raised would be going towards paying down the ballooning debt. If they said something like: we'll raise $1T over the next X years via wealth taxes and put that money directly towards the national debt. However, in practice, we know that the $1T raised would be divvied up to other interests, say, $200B to Ukraine, $200B to fight climate change, $200B to social programs, $200B squandered away in various grifts and leakages as is customary any time the US government gets money, and maybe $200B at best would find its way to pay down the national debt.
"fair" points.
 
So is the intelligence gap among voters. Harris is up .2 more points today.

Harris lead over Trump
July 24 - +0.8
July 31 - +1.2
August 7 - +1.9
August 14 - +2.6
August 21 - +3.3
August 23 - +3.5


.2? What?!! OMG!

tenor.gif
 
you probably don't know much about football, so I'll excuse the misunderstanding of what a two-touchdown favorite is.
Not only do I understand what a two-touchdown favorite is, I'm pretty certain I know more about the game of football than you think. I'd be willing to bet you never participated in sports, eh?
 
Fair point. But inflation-adjusted how many centi-billionaires were there? Or how many were there worth 10+ billionaires?

- The richest top 0.1% has seen its share of American wealth nearly triple from 7% to 20% between the late 1970s and 2016, while the bottom 90% has seen its share of wealth decline from 35% to 25% in that same period. And it greatly worsened after 2017 tax cuts for the rich.
- The richest 130,000 families in America now hold nearly as much wealth as the bottom 117 million families combined.

There are ways to prevent the stifle of innovation while also helping tackle national debt. Instead of taxing unrealized cap gains someone had the idea of taxing 6% annually of "wealth" over a billion, and 2% wealth over 50 million (this would be a million that someone would need to cough-up).

Why is it always more revenue for you? Why is it never cut expenses?
 
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It is going to require both. I don't understand why people are so opposed to insanely wealthy needing to cough up their fair share. Taxes have been a part of our government (and almost all governments) for awhile.

Why do you get to decide what "their fair share" is? I'd argue they are currently paying more than their fair share. The percentage is insignificant. The total dollars are what matters.
 
Speaking of a knowledge of athletics, I believe you made a claim yesterday about Carolina basketball that you haven't followed up on.

You're a moron and I don't have any respect for your knowledge of our basketball program.

How's that for a follow up? What?...you wanna play a trivia game where you'd just look up the answers?
 
Why do you get to decide what "their fair share" is? I'd argue they are currently paying more than their fair share. The percentage is insignificant. The total dollars are what matters.
The percentage is higher as well. Someone with $1M in income in a year is not only paying more dollars, but also a higher percentage of their income than someone with $50K income in a year. I think it's hard to argue that's fair. Necessary for the country, maybe I can hear an argument for that, but fair? No.
 
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It is going to require both. I don't understand why people are so opposed to insanely wealthy needing to cough up their fair share. Taxes have been a part of our government (and almost all governments) for awhile.
they are already coughing up more than their share. I don't disagree with taxing them progressively but how insanely oblivious do you have to be to not understand that the debt problem isn't that the rich have too much money, it's that we're spending actually insanely stupid amounts of it. Did you see what was spent on ILLEGALS? NON-citizens. Are you fvcking kidding me?

Getting rich and grabbing a greater share is what this country is all about and it's why people pour over our borders to get their hands on it. The wealth gap isn't going to improve if you keep giving people money to keep them from having to claw and scratch their way to improved finances. THAT is a major part of wealth accumulation. Fairness has little to do with it other than the fairness of providing a path that anyone can take advantage of....if they have the incentive to do so.

If you believe in a natural state of things like I do, you understand that life on Earth developed as it did due to one thing...competition. Competition is as natural and important as water and air is to the way we have come about. And after a few billion years of competitiveness, all of a sudden the progressively wise among us have decided that there is a better way for people to develop. No more competition, competition is barbaric and unfair. Better wake up my friend, because we are killing it. Competition is the goose that lays the golden egg.

If you wiped the slate clean and started all over from scratch, and gave everyone the same amount of land and money and said do with it what you will., it would not take long for exactly the same spread of wealth to develop as we now have. It has NOT been that fair and equitable of course but what's done is done so don't even bother going there. The point is that a level playing field means a level field to compete on...it does NOT mean you try to even the score by taking points from whoever is ahead.
 
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You're a moron and I don't have any respect for your knowledge of our basketball program.

How's that for a follow up? What?...you wanna play a trivia game where you'd just look up the answers?
Uh-oh. Did my challenging of your challenge trip you up?

Even my nine-year-old nephew knows all about Carolina basketball in the modern era, so I'll ask you what you know about Monk McDonald. What are the two things that make him unique among UNC basketball players?
 
Uh-oh. Did my challenging of your challenge trip you up?

Even my nine-year-old nephew knows all about Carolina in the modern era, so I'll ask you what you know about Monk McDonald. n What are the two things that make him unique among UNC basketball players?

Multi-sport Monk? Former basketball coach?

Grow up Peter Pan,…Count Chocula.
 
Uh-oh. Did my challenging of your challenge trip you up?

Even my nine-year-old nephew knows all about Carolina basketball in the modern era, so I'll ask you what you know about Monk McDonald. What are the two things that make him unique among UNC basketball players?
I don't think that's the way you play trivia. You aren't supposed to look up beforehand the answer to your own question. I'm not surprised you thought that would work though. LOL.
 
He played football, basketball and baseball. He played with Jack Cobb on the retro-awarded ‘24 national title team. He graduated and then coached for 1 year.

What else ya got?
I didn't ask for statistics. I asked what specifically makes him unique?
 
I see what you were doing there. But it's a different set of rules for him, don't ya know?
I was just making fun of the guy using the term polyamorous in order to make it seem like some choice of lifestyle instead of just saying a black guy had started railing his wife. Then I was making fun of those who would say don't be crude when you're mocking somebody's lifestyle choices because words hurt.. Then I made it about Trump because, it's all about Trump at the D&C convention. Then...well I guess that's it.
 
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Biden's plans, she has alluded to supporting, only impact 100 million and up. So like 10,000 people. What is 'tardy about a wealth tax on people worth over 100 million? Especially the inheritance oriented stuff.

The liquidity issue could be dangerous stock-market wise (if uber-rich were forced to sell stock), but perhaps this could be slowly scaled? This might be a big hiccup in the plan.

Consumption taxes would be better, but they're hard to implement in this global economy. But making a billionaire become an 800 millionaire isn't going to stifle our economy.

The rich are just getting richer while wages stagnate for everyone else. The main reason they're rich is because our great nation is a prosperous one due to many state/fed actions the last few hundred years (infrastructure and other investments), so we should all benefit.
Answer two questions for me and then we'll go from there.

1. Quantify fair share for me. Give me an actual number, not some vague definition.

2. How will taking the amount defined in question one help the country since that is the stated goal.
 
The percentage is higher as well. Someone with $1M in income in a year is not only paying more dollars, but also a higher percentage of their income than someone with $50K income in a year. I think it's hard to argue that's fair. Necessary for the country, maybe I can hear an argument for that, but fair? No.
Why do you get to decide what "their fair share" is? I'd argue they are currently paying more than their fair share. The percentage is insignificant. The total dollars are what matters.
They actually aren't paying a higher % due to loopholes. That seems unfair.

We're taxing income (wages and a few other things), but not wealth, but in this era income isn't well defined, since salary alone isn't an accurate measure and asset appreciation isn't realized due to loopholes. Some uber-weathy take zero salary. Bezos took an 80k salary. They all have tricks to minimize the current definition of income to the extent that
"IRS records reveal that 18 billionaires and some 250 other ultrawealthy people received the covid stimulus checks for low-middle earners". George Soros and his son both got checks! (they graciously returned them).

And the tax code helps wealthy people in ways that poor/middle can't use for their benefit. The super-rich milk these, poor (or people paycheck to paycheck) cannot:

Mortgate interest
ROTH iras
Tax loss harvesting
Business expenses that are actually play expenses. Yachts used for "business meetings"
Being paid in stock instead of income.
Bequeathing stock to fam who don't pay capital gain taxes.
Avoiding capital gains by borrowing with low rates and only spending what you borrow.
"philanthropic" tax avoidance.
Selling assets you inherit but not ones you buy.
Carryforward rules.
Plenty of other deductions.

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So these uberwealthy are getting richer and richer without actually paying taxes reflecting their true "incoming money". So they're effective rates are actually much lower than yours or mine.

All these people benefit from the federal investments that make this nation prosperous and "appreciating". The point of taxes is to be able to defend ourselves and upkeep the welfare of our nation. Without this nation being so prosperous these people wouldn't be so rich, so fairness is them supporting the nation which is making them rich.
 
I always chuckle when someone tries to argue their way through something by using the term "loopholes". It's a justification technique for their end goal. There are no loopholes, just rules.

I guess it's a loophole that a guy who's 6'2" figured out that he wasn't going to become a legend by taking the ball inside, so he used the "loophole" of really long shots being worth three points to become the greatest shooter in NBA history and changed the entire game in the process.

The rich can take advantage of all these "loopholes" because they have teams of accountants and lawyers who set them up that way. Average Joe is lucky if he can afford someone beyond H&R Block for 30 minutes.

Tax rules are supposed to reflect policies and provide incentives to pursue those goals. Setting tax rules up to disincentivize rich people from making more money and creating more wealth only encourages them to go elsewhere. I get what you are arguing in terms of whether someone has 1B or 999M is irrelevant, but if your setup, by design, is to simply make it so that 1B is now becoming 600M, while it means nothing impactful on them personally, they aren't hanging around to let you do that. They're going somewhere else and sitting on their 1B. Either way, your policy has done nothing to get more revenue.
 
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It's just class warfare of the many against the few. Of course the many want to take what the few have, but what did the many do to earn or create it? This is why things like the electoral college are so important.
 
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All these people benefit from the federal investments that make this nation prosperous and "appreciating". The point of taxes is to be able to defend ourselves and upkeep the welfare of our nation. Without this nation being so prosperous these people wouldn't be so rich, so fairness is them supporting the nation which is making them rich.

But the uber wealthy are the ones making the country prosperous.
 
Answer two questions for me and then we'll go from there.

1. Quantify fair share for me. Give me an actual number, not some vague definition.

2. How will taking the amount defined in question one help the country since that is the stated goal.
1. Calculate/determine the true tax rate after you define true income (not just wages) that make up wealth you've gleaned because of being a fortunate American. Valuing assets is tricky, but not impossible. That is your starting point.

We have a system of progressive rates, for better or worse, but at least make sure the final true tax rate isn't less for billionaires than other americans. Tax wealth, not work.

2. Raise revenue to help reduce deficit.
 
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But the uber wealthy are the ones making the country prosperous.
You don't think amazon would be what it is today if we had different rules for unrealized gains starting at 100 million. You think Bezos would have left the company when the stock price rose to a level making him that rich? Bezos had a $70 billion gain in wealth in 2023. If that was only going to be 50 billion instead do you think we he would've left the company or crash it?

Musk paid 44 billion for twitter, it is now work 13 billion. In a single yr he lost 30B.... do you think he cares at all, other than pride?
 
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