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OOTB's Political Thread . ..

dadika13 said:
1. Trump has his own interests at heart, no one else. If your interests happen to coincide with his, then sure, yours are being catered to.
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Agreed.

dadika13 said:
We were the only superpower before Trump and we'll be the only superpower after him.
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Define superpower. I think you can say China is a superpower, unless you don't think their military is strong enough.

dadika13 said:
People put too much stock in the presidency meaning much.
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This is 100% accurate. If Trump has done anything, it's prove that the presidency doesn't have as much power as people think.
 
tarheel0910 said:
Define superpower. I think you can say China is a superpower, unless you don't think their military is strong enough.
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I think they are the argument if we're talking about another one, but they are still way behind the US in some very key economic, military, and foreign relations stats.

GDP by 7 trillion, oil is still traded in the US dollar, $500 billion behind in defense spending, etc.

However, the gap between US and China isn't nearly as big as the gap between China and the #3 in all of these categories. So it's definitely an argument but we're still the clear #1.
 
Raising Heel said:
I'm sure someone is.
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Finally! NoleSoup4U has come back to Out of the Blue!

What's up with doddering old man, Mueller? It seems pretty obvious at this point that the report was written by The Clinton Fan Club.

Just for S's and G's...why don't we take a look back at 2016 through a massive "progressive" lens?

 


I don't get why he says shit that can easily be proven to be false. My cousin lived in JC at the time, he said the whole city was like a funeral watching the towers burn/collapse.

I lived directly across the street from 40 Wall Street for 8 years, while it was the tallest building when completed in the 30s, it was quickly passed in downtown Manhattan 2 years later by 70 Pine Street (which I lived a block away from). Anyone who has lived down there knows these things because there are 1,000 tours a day you have to listen to when you walk out of your door.

Whether he helped clean "a little bit" who the hell knows. I'm sure he wasn't down there finding bodies but I'm sure he moved some rubble that was in the way of his limo.

We ruined the guy's career from The League who lied about 9/11...not too sure we should give our President a pass on saying dumb shit either.
 
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dadika13 said:
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I don't get why he says shit that can easily be proven to be false. My cousin lived in JC at the time, he said the whole city was like a funeral watching the towers burn/collapse.

I lived directly across the street from 40 Wall Street for 8 years, while it was the tallest building when completed in the 30s, it was quickly passed in downtown Manhattan 2 years later by 70 Pine Street (which I lived a block away from). Anyone who has lived down there knows these things because there are 1,000 tours a day you have to listen to when you walk out of your door.

Whether he helped clean "a little bit" who the hell knows. I'm sure he wasn't down there finding bodies but I'm sure he moved some rubble that was in the way of his limo.

We ruined the guy's career from The League who lied about 9/11...not too sure we should give our President a pass on saying dumb shit either.
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His entire base has made a hobby out of giving him a pass for saying dumb shit. Anyone who doesn’t give him a pass is a hysterical “never trumper.”
 
dadika13 said:
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As always, Ts and Ps over gun reform.
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Normally i agree but with the garlic festival, calif has the toughest gun laws in the country already and had metal detectors at the entrances. Dude was killed within 3 min of first shots. He had no mental health issue history, His legally purchased gun was semi auto no bump stock and he had to stop and reload. So all the usual gun law proposals seem to not apply here.
 
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heelmanwilm said:
Normally i agree but with the garlic festival, calif has the toughest gun laws in the country already and had metal detectors at the entrances. Dude was killed within 3 min of first shots. He had no mental health issue history, His legally purchased gun was semi auto no bump stock and he had to stop and reload. So all the usual gun law proposals seem to not apply here.
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1. He didn't buy the gun in California, he bought it in Nevada. So state laws on gun control mean nothing, this is a national issue that needs to be handled at the national level because you can buy a weapon illegal in California in the neighboring state and drive it across the state line.

2. From the store owner: "I did not know this individual. He ordered the rifle off my internet page. When I did see him, he was acting happy and showed no reasons for concern. I would never ever sell any firearm to anyone who acted wrong or looks associated with any bad group like white power,"

This is why we need more strict rules across the board. You can't just go "oh this guy looks like a good guy, let's give him a gun."
 
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tarheel0910 said:
What law would have stopped him from doing what he did?
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Not sure since they haven't really shared all of the details on how he purchased.

But a good start is limited access to "AK-47 type" rifles. Longer and more thorough background checks. A hunting license.

There's just simply no reason that in modern times a 19 year old kid should be able to register and buy an assault rifle. How many more shootings need to happen?
 
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dadika13 said:
Not sure since they haven't really shared all of the details on how he purchased.

But a good start is limited access to "AK-47 type" rifles. Longer and more thorough background checks. A hunting license.

There's just simply no reason that in modern times a 19 year old kid should be able to register and buy an assault rifle. How many more shootings need to happen?
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So far nothing has come out about his background, so a background check wouldn't have made a difference. What exactly is an "AK-47 type" rifle? I feel like AK-47 is being used as a buzz word for everything rifle related nowadays. Why would you need a hunting license? That doesn't really make sense for two reasons. One, not everyone is buying these things to hunt and two, it's super easy to get a hunting license. You show up, pay a fee and get a license. In some states you have to take a safety course, but that's it. It wouldn't stop a single person from getting a gun.

All that being said, I'm ok with background checks being expanded to include rifles. People need to realize that would have almost zero impact on shootings though. It's strictly window dressing.
 
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dadika13 said:
Not sure since they haven't really shared all of the details on how he purchased.

But a good start is limited access to "AK-47 type" rifles. Longer and more thorough background checks. A hunting license.

There's just simply no reason that in modern times a 19 year old kid should be able to register and buy an assault rifle. How many more shootings need to happen?
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See: Charles Whitman
Killed 14 and injured 31 with a bolt action not ‘AK-47 type’ rifle.
 
tarheel0910 said:
So far nothing has come out about his background, so a background check wouldn't have made a difference. What exactly is an "AK-47 type" rifle? I feel like AK-47 is being used as a buzz word for everything rifle related nowadays. Why would you need a hunting license? That doesn't really make sense for two reasons. One, not everyone is buying these things to hunt and two, it's super easy to get a hunting license. You show up, pay a fee and get a license. In some states you have to take a safety course, but that's it. It wouldn't stop a single person from getting a gun.

All that being said, I'm ok with background checks being expanded to include rifles. People need to realize that would have almost zero impact on shootings though. It's strictly window dressing.
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So what would stop shootings other than less guns?

Less guns equals less gun violence, the numbers behind it are staggering. We have the most death by guns of all civilized countries by a factor of 4x even when accounting for our population.

We have 4 percent of the worlds population but 47% of the civilian guns.

Are these two stats just completely random?
 
Better gun legislation isn’t going to prevent every shooting. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t adopt common sense gun policies. Universal background checks and closing the gun show / private transfer loopholes would be a good start.

The nirvana fallacy is always in full effect whenever the gun legislation debate comes up.

Personally I think it should be a lot like getting a drivers license. Mandatory firearm safety education, written test, practical test and a background check. Anytime you go to buy a gun they scan your license to make sure it’s still valid and you haven’t committed a relevant crime since you got it. Obviously people still get in car accidents. That doesn’t mean the drivers license system doesn’t make roads a lot safer.
 
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dadika13 said:
So what would stop shootings other than less guns?

Less guns equals less gun violence, the numbers behind it are staggering. We have the most death by guns of all civilized countries by a factor of 4x even when accounting for our population.

We have 4 percent of the worlds population but 47% of the civilian guns.

Are these two stats just completely random?
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What would stop shootings? Absolutely nothing would stop them. You could make it harder for a small number of people, but if you want to shoot someone you can easily do it because there are a crap ton of guns in this country. If you can't get it legally, then you can get it illegally easy. This is a case of not being able to put the toothpaste back in the tube. I've got no problem with the window dressing stuff though. I'm fine with background checks, making fully autos illegal and making bump stocks and high capacity mags illegal.

As far as those gun violence numbers go, you have to look beyond the surface. The majority of gun deaths happen from suicide.
 
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tarheel0910 said:
What would stop shootings? Absolutely nothing would stop them. You could make it harder for a small number of people, but if you want to shoot someone you can easily do it because there are a crap ton of guns in this country. If you can't get it legally, then you can get it illegally easy. This is a case of not being able to put the toothpaste back in the tube. I've got no problem with the window dressing stuff though. I'm fine with background checks, making fully autos illegal and making bump stocks and high capacity mags illegal.

As far as those gun violence numbers go, you have to look beyond the surface. The majority of gun deaths happen from suicide.
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To a certain extent gun control feels like treating the symptoms not the disease. Mental illness is the underlying cause of people wanting to fire guns into a crowd. No sane person would want to do that. Same goes for people who shoot themselves, or commit a murder/suicide. As you mentioned those are much more common than mass shootings. We need to do a better job as a society of treating mental illness.

Someone mentioned Whitman earlier. Whitman requested medical treatment for headaches and irrational outbursts numerous times before he went on his rampage. His farewell letter requested that his brain be studied because he knew something was wrong with him. He turned out to have a tumor in his brain that many scientists believe was responsible for his radical change of personality (mental illness) that led to the shooting.
 
uncboy10 said:
To a certain extent gun control feels like treating the symptoms not the disease. Mental illness is the underlying cause of people wanting to fire guns into a crowd. No sane person would want to do that. Same goes for people who shoot themselves, or commit a murder/suicide. As you mentioned those are much more common than mass shootings. We need to do a better job as a society of treating mental illness.

Someone mentioned Whitman earlier. Whitman requested medical treatment for headaches and irrational outbursts numerous times before he went on his rampage. His farewell letter requested that his brain be studied because he knew something was wrong with him. He turned out to have a tumor in his brain that many scientists believe was responsible for his radical change of personality (mental illness) that led to the shooting.
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We've (by we, I mean all posters who post here not just you) had this conversation a couple of times on this board, but mental illness in and of itself isn't the reason for mass shootings. I've provided studies to back that up in the previous debates, so I won't go into the details this time. You are right that we need to do a better job as a society of treating mental illness. It's a big problem that a lot of people just want to ignore and in some cases don't believe in it.
 
tarheel0910 said:
We've (by we, I mean all posters who post here not just you) had this conversation a couple of times on this board, but mental illness in and of itself isn't the reason for mass shootings. I've provided studies to back that up in the previous debates, so I won't go into the details this time. You are right that we need to do a better job as a society of treating mental illness. It's a big problem that a lot of people just want to ignore and in some cases don't believe in it.
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I guess that depends on how you define mental illness. Maybe it’s just semantics, but it seems like a mass shooter should be considered mentally ill based solely off the fact that they are willing to murder people en masse. I’m no psychologist but that clearly points towards anti-social personality disorder IMO.

My views also won’t jive with most people here because I’m a determinist. I don’t think free will exists, which means I think human behavior is an outcome determined by a wide variety of causal factors ranging from neurochemistry, environment, genetics, etc. Basically it’s an assertion that the laws of physics determine human behavior just like everything else. But that’s a long discussion. My point is that if that determinist model is correct, then the physical nature of someone’s brain determines their behavior, including serial killers. If we could tweak their brains in the right way, then they would no longer want to kill people.
 
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I think it's easier to treat the gun problem then the undiagnosed mental illness problem. Both absolutely need to be focused on, I just think it's easier in this circumstance to make it much more difficult for people who shouldn't have guns to get them.
 
dadika13 said:
I think it's easier to treat the gun problem then the undiagnosed mental illness problem. Both absolutely need to be focused on, I just think it's easier in this circumstance to make it much more difficult for people who shouldn't have guns to get them.
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That's fine, but what you've suggested isn't making it more difficult for the vast majority of people. At best, it makes it more inconvenient. Short of allowing the government a peak at your medical records and never allowing anyone who has been to therapy to get a gun, you aren't going to make a dent.
 
the gun argument is SO STUPID. mentally ill / disturbed / pissed off people are going to find a way to take out their desire to kill one way or another. via gun, vehicle, backpack bomb, knife and on and on and on. PEOPLE ARE SCREWED UP, get over it and hope it doesn't happen to you.

go look up how many times a gun owner stops someone else with a gun from committing a crime (but good luck cause that info is buried deeeeep) - it happens EVERY day.
 
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I would imagine the cost of collecting legally purchased guns from citizens in order to stop a few nutbags from mass shooting would go over quiet well. It would quickly turn me into a criminal. The legislation alone would take years. The deep south would never go for it either.

I own several shotguns, pistols, and AR's.
All legally purchased. I hate what happens when people flip the switch and kill themselves/others. I for one feel that it is some variety of mental issue. But I dont feel inclined to give up anything in my life to the government. They get enough as it is. Usually their programs to help society ends up costing me lots of money.

I am ok with stricter policies on purchasing guns. I myself have a conceal carry permit, which I do quiet frequently. It took 3 mo ths to get. I can now go to any guns show un the state of North Carolina and purchase pistols with no wait. Otherwise, it takes a couple of days for others to purchase due to permits. I would be ok with federal license being required for potential mass shooting weapons. But not collecting my weapons.
 
bleeduncblue said:
the gun argument is SO STUPID. mentally ill / disturbed / pissed off people are going to find a way to take out their desire to kill one way or another. via gun, vehicle, backpack bomb, knife and on and on and on. PEOPLE ARE SCREWED UP, get over it and hope it doesn't happen to you.
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See? Problem solved!

What's next on the agenda?
 
Still waiting on the reason why having a gun is important other than “other people have guns.”
 
Grayhead said:
I would imagine the cost of collecting legally purchased guns from citizens in order to stop a few nutbags from mass shooting would go over quiet well. It would quickly turn me into a criminal. The legislation alone would take years. The deep south would never go for it either.
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Replace gun with slave and you sound just like someone from 1850. Worked out well when we took that “right” from white, wealthy southerners.

Hopefully we’d avoid succession and the subsequent Civil War this time.
 
dadika13 said:
Still waiting on the reason why having a gun is important other than “other people have guns.”
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That depends on the person, but it's pretty important if you want to hunt. I guess technically you could bow hunt though. I got mine for protection.
 
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