OOTB's Political Thread . ..

[UNC71-00]

I don’t think immigrants here illegally deserve amnesty, but we need to come up with a visa program that can be accessed by that group.

What most people miss in this discussion is that we need the tax base to increase to cover the huge Medicare liability just over the horizon. Only one way to do that at this point.

 

[uncboy10]

Doubling down on his bad posts wasn't what I meant by "help the guy out." I want some real dialog here. I'm sure you guys are up to that.

Not really interested. I’ve seen enough in the last few threads. All you’re going to do is lose an argument then brag about how nobody is smart enough to debate you. Then you’ll tell everyone that all they know how to do is insult you and say they’re narcissistic. It’s a pretty short playbook.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Not really interested. I’ve seen enough in the last few threads. All you’re going to do is lose an argument then brag about how nobody is smart enough to debate you. Then you’ll tell everyone that all they know how to do is insult you and say they’re narcissistic. It’s a pretty short playbook.

Then go hide in your cry closet. Nobody cares if you don't have anything to add.

 

[UNC71-00]

@NoleSoup4U how long til we break even on building a wall?

 

[ticket2ride04]

Okay, even though we're still rehashing some, we're still getting closer.

First, my stance was that the wall isn't the best solution, but that it is better than doing nothing, and yes it will save money in the long run. I've made multiple posts about this, so if you have an issue with any of my reasoning, let me know.

As for your China comment, again this is rehashing, but it essentially boils down to, "walls are meant to keep people out." The reasoning isn't really applicable. And before you reference visas, we've already covered this as well.

Then we come to the last part of your post. This is something that hasn't actually been rehashed, so let me answer this. The problem relies upon high school teachers, advisors, and administrators properly advising the students. If they aren't advising kids away from useless degrees, which generally lead to being a barista, in favor of useful degrees, such as trade degrees, then that is a breakdown of the biases of secondary education.

- we aren’t doing nothing. Immigration is slowing. Border crossings are slowing. Throwing $25B at a band aid that won’t move the needle is retarded and a leftist type solution. Address the symptom.

- the right wall could keep people out. But thus far, it hasn’t been proposed. Or even close. There’s been no plan submitted of what a a true borde wall would look like and cost. Only random, made up numbers.

- your last point nullifies your previous points. Until we address the root issues within our country, there will always be a demand for immigrant labor. Building a giant, costly, ineffective wall doesn’t change the fact we have a systemic issue at home.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

@NoleSoup4U how long til we break even on building a wall?

Hell if I know. I've already posted that I have no idea in this thread. My point is that eventually we would break even. How long that takes, I don't know.

 

[UNC71-00]

Hell if I know. I've already posted that I have no idea in this thread. My point is that eventually we would break even. How long that takes, I don't know.

is there any amount of time that would cause you to say that breaking even was not a good deal?

 

[NoleSoup4U]

- we aren’t doing nothing. Immigration is slowing. Border crossings are slowing. Throwing $25B at a band aid that won’t move the needle is retarded and a leftist type solution. Address the symptom.

- the right wall could keep people out. But thus far, it hasn’t been proposed. Or even close. There’s been no plan submitted of what a a true borde wall would look like and cost. Only random, made up numbers.

- your last point nullifies your previous points. Until we address the root issues within our country, there will always be a demand for immigrant labor. Building a giant, costly, ineffective wall doesn’t change the fact we have a systemic issue at home.

1) Everything we are currently doing, people are bitching about. They just released 1600 people in El Paso and it's causing problems, so we aren't doing much. There are another 15k people on their way from Honduras. It doesn't sound like we're doing a whole lot right now. What are we actually doing, if you don't mind me asking?

2) I agree that Congress needs to decide upon something. There are better resolutions than the wall, and I would hope they go with those, but something is better than nothing.

3) Of course we have issues at home, I never said otherwise. That doesn't mean we need to perpetuate the same system that is causing the problems.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

is there any amount of time that would cause you to say that breaking even was not a good deal?

No, because I tend to look at the long-term as opposed to the short-term. I can't give you a number, but if it takes fifty years to get it done, then it takes fifty years.

 

[UNC71-00]

No, because I tend to look at the long-term as opposed to the short-term. I can't give you a number, but if it takes fifty years to get it done, then it takes fifty years.

What if it took 500?

 

[ticket2ride04]

1) Everything we are currently doing, people are bitching about. They just released 1600 people in El Paso and it's causing problems, so we aren't doing much. There are another 15k people on their way from Honduras. It doesn't sound like we're doing a whole lot right now. What are we actually doing, if you don't mind me asking?

2) I agree that Congress needs to decide upon something. There are better resolutions than the wall, and I would hope they go with those, but something is better than nothing.

3) Of course we have issues at home, I never said otherwise. That doesn't mean we need to perpetuate the same system that is causing the problems.

1.

2. The cost of a truly effective wall would be so insanely expensive your head would explode. And it still would only cover border crossings. It would be the worst investment in the history of the world.

3. It also doesn’t mean we need to waste money for a politics victory.

 

[strummingram]

I like how Trump is now threatening to "close the entire southern border" because of the government shutdown... if he doesn't get the wall built.

Hey! If he can "close the entire southern border", then why is he crying about a wall? He probably has to have something that he can look at and say "I did that." When, in reality, like everything that has ever been done that he was associated with; he didn't do anything except run his mouth.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

What if it took 500?

Unless you think the US is going to collapse by then, then yes. However, I don't know how it would take us 500 years when other countries do it with zero problems.

 

[strummingram]

Hell if I know. How long that takes, I don't know.

I believe that!

 

[UNC71-00]

I could easily figure the cost of a concrete wall. Just tell me the dimensions

 

[NoleSoup4U]

1.

2. The cost of a truly effective wall would be so insanely expensive your head would explode. And it still would only cover border crossings. It would be the worst investment in the history of the world.

3. It also doesn’t mean we need to waste money for a politics victory.

1) Those are apprehensions, not illegals. Even if less immigrants are coming across, it doesn't mean that we don't need to do anything. If you deport people right now, they'll just come back across.

2) So, what is the total cost?

3) By "politics victory", do you mean protecting the economical freedom of the citizens? I'm not exactly sure what you mean here.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

I could easily figure the cost of a concrete wall. Just tell me the dimensions

I'm guessing those numbers are out there. Whether or not they are legit is another question.

 

[UNC71-00]

Unless you think the US is going to collapse by then, then yes. However, I don't know how it would take us 500 years when other countries do it with zero problems.

Your whole notion of the wall being a good financial investment is predicated on it being a break even. How can you determine this if you don’t have even a rough estimate of worst case scenario?

 

[ticket2ride04]

I could easily figure the cost of a concrete wall. Just tell me the dimensions

Let’s round to make it easy. 2,000 miles. 50’ x 4’

15’ buried below the surface. Account for some kind of reverse grade to make it harder to scale.

What’s the maintenance look like on that bad boy?

 

[ticket2ride04]

Your whole notion of the wall being a good financial investment is predicated on it being a break even. How can you determine this if you don’t have even a rough estimate of worst case scenario?

Spoiler

He doesn’t understand NPV. Yes it’s not a direct apples to apples here but my point remains

 

[UNC71-00]

I'm guessing those numbers are out there. Whether or not they are legit is another question.

I doubt they are. One side will report a much higher cost estimate than the other side and both can’t be right.

I’m not sure there is an unbiased estimate readily available.

 

[ticket2ride04]

Unless you think the US is going to collapse by then, then yes. However, I don't know how it would take us 500 years when other countries do it with zero problems.

Why do you assume other countries do it with zero problems?

 

[ticket2ride04]

1) Those are apprehensions, not illegals. Even if less immigrants are coming across, it doesn't mean that we don't need to do anything. If you deport people right now, they'll just come back across.

2) So, what is the total cost?

3) By "politics victory", do you mean protecting the economical freedom of the citizens? I'm not exactly sure what you mean here.

1. If the wall turns them away, they will seek alternate entry
2. No clue but easily in the 100s of billions.
3. Trump wants a political victory by getting $5B for his Border Wall. What he and Congress/House should be doing is working towards a meaningful proposal

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Your whole notion of the wall being a good financial investment is predicated on it being a break even. How can you determine this if you don’t have even a rough estimate of worst case scenario?

Because cutting down welfare and Medicaid along a long enough timeline should cover it. I've seen articles that state that up to $900 billion is used for illegal immigration every year. While I find that amount to be a little crazy, I've seen other's that claim the rate to be just above $300 billion a year. Even if that secondary number is incorrect, how incorrect is it compaired to how expensive the wall would be?

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Why do you assume other countries do it with zero problems?

Because of Canada and Sweden.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

I doubt they are. One side will report a much higher cost estimate than the other side and both can’t be right.

I’m not sure there is an unbiased estimate readily available.

That's entirely possible.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

1. If the wall turns them away, they will seek alternate entry
2. No clue but easily in the 100s of billions.
3. Trump wants a political victory by getting $5B for his Border Wall. What he and Congress/House should be doing is working towards a meaningful proposal

1) Such as?

2) Okay, you are crucifying me for murky numbers, then you do the same to me.

3) The Dems and mainstream politicians have no interest in working with Trump, pretty much regardless of what he tries to do.

 

[UNC71-00]

Let’s round to make it easy. 2,000 miles. 50’ x 4’

15’ buried below the surface. Account for some kind of reverse grade to make it harder to scale.

What’s the maintenance look like on that bad boy?

Concrete cost alone would be in excess of $11 billion. Probably 5 times that actually. 11B assumes there is always a plant within 5 miles of the construction zone. And that there is almost no waste.

(There would be about 102 million cubic yards of concrete @$110 per yard)

This number is also only for the concrete. No rebar, no excavation, no labor, etc etc. So go ahead and multiply that next number by 5 (and this is too low- remember, you have to find someway to house and feed this labor. It’s not like large portions of the border are within close driving distance of a Motel 6 and Waffle House.)

I can keep going but I won’t, but I can easily make an argument for the wall costing 500 billion.

How much are we spending on social programs for illegals?

 

[ticket2ride04]

Because of Canada and Sweden.

Canada’s wall?

1) Such as?

2) Okay, you are crucifying me for murky numbers, then you do the same to me.

3) The Dems and mainstream politicians have no interest in working with Trump, pretty much regardless of what he tries to do.

1. Boats, planes, fake documents, visas
2. I have experience in construction. We spend on average $5MM per mile to build a basic highway. An actual border wall from coast to coast would be an astronomical cost.
3. The Dems are feckless bitches but they offered him $25B for a Wall last year. He walked away at the last second when he was roasted by the Right Wing media.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Concrete cost alone would be in excess of $11 billion. Probably 5 times that actually. 11B assumes there is always a plant within 5 miles of the construction zone. And that there is almost no waste.

(There would be about 102 million cubic yards of concrete @$110 per yard)

This number is also only for the concrete. No rebar, no excavation, no labor, etc etc. So go ahead and multiply that next number by 5 (and this is too low- remember, you have to find someway to house and feed this labor. It’s not like large portions of the border are within close driving distance of a Motel 6 and Waffle House.)

I can keep going but I won’t, but I can easily make an argument for the wall costing 500 billion.

How much are we spending on social programs for illegals?

The low estimates I've seen are north of $300 billion per year. I have no idea how accurite this is.

I do have one question, does your estimate include the entire border? The reason I ask is because the wall wouldn't encompass the entire border.

 

[ticket2ride04]

Concrete cost alone would be in excess of $11 billion. Probably 5 times that actually. 11B assumes there is always a plant within 5 miles of the construction zone. And that there is almost no waste.

(There would be about 102 million cubic yards of concrete @$110 per yard)

This number is also only for the concrete. No rebar, no excavation, no labor, etc etc. So go ahead and multiply that next number by 5 (and this is too low- remember, you have to find someway to house and feed this labor. It’s not like large portions of the border are within close driving distance of a Motel 6 and Waffle House.)

I can keep going but I won’t, but I can easily make an argument for the wall costing 500 billion.

How much are we spending on social programs for illegals?

Got damn you are coming in hot. You and your liberal biased numbers.

Now let’s tske it a step further. How do federal budgets work? We allocate $50B for the project. When the money runs out, the work stops. It goes back to phase 1. New leadership is in place. The debate to continue wages on. By the time the new funding is in place, materials have tripled in price.

 

[UNC71-00]

The low estimates I've seen are north of $300 billion per year. I have no idea how accurite this is.

I do have one question, does your estimate include the entire border? The reason I ask is because the wall wouldn't encompass the entire border.

My estimate is 2000 miles. I also did a square wall- did not reverse grade.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Canada’s wall?


1. Boats, planes, fake documents, visas
2. I have experience in construction. We spend on average $5MM per mile to build a basic highway. An actual border wall from coast to coast would be an astronomical cost.
3. The Dems are feckless bitches but they offered him $25B for a Wall last year. He walked away at the last second when he was roasted by the Right Wing media.

1) We do have radar and the national guard, right? How many people are sneaking over via that route?

2) I have my doubts that independent contractors are forthright when it comes to costs on government projects. I've seen the road crews taking months to pave a one mile part of a two-lane road.

3) The establishment right doesn't want immigration control either. They're all shills for the corporations.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

My estimate is 2000 miles. I also did a square wall- did not reverse grade.

Gotcha. So, how many miles of wall are they going to build?

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Okay, I looked it up myself. The border is 1,954 miles long, some of which won't have walls.

 

[UNC71-00]

Got damn you are coming in hot. You and your liberal biased numbers.

Now let’s tske it a step further. How do federal budgets work? We allocate $50B for the project. When the money runs out, the work stops. It goes back to phase 1. New leadership is in place. The debate to continue wages on. By the time the new funding is in place, materials have tripled in price.

Everything will triple, not just materials.

I bet this thing would cost 2 trillion.

But regardless, how much do illegals cost us a year? Net it out.

Wall is a horrible investment for the American people. Much like many other Federal investments.

 

[UNC71-00]

Okay, I looked it up myself. The border is 1,954 miles long, some of which won't have walls.

A- then how many miles?
B- why can’t the illegals just walk across the spots without walls?

 

[ticket2ride04]

The low estimates I've seen are north of $300 billion per year. I have no idea how accurite this is.

I do have one question, does your estimate include the entire border? The reason I ask is because the wall wouldn't encompass the entire border.

But why wouldn’t we encompass the entire border? We can’t leave spots for them to come through

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Everything will triple, not just materials.

I bet this thing would cost 2 trillion.

But regardless, how much do illegals cost us a year? Net it out.

Wall is a horrible investment for the American people. Much like many other Federal investments.

So, if you spend $2T and the cost of illegals is $300B, then I guess you would recoup your costs in seven years. I could live with that.

 

[UNC71-00]

So, if you spend $2T and the cost of illegals is $300B, then I guess you would recoup your costs in seven years. I could live with that.

Ok- where do you get your cost for illegals?