OOTB's Political Thread . ..

[cletusnow]

You don't have to assume anything. It was made abundantly clear in their constitution, their rhetoric for galvanizing secession, and maintaining the whole effort. They weren't cryptic either.

Yeah... they were really progressing.

I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.-Abraham Lincoln

 

[CanuckChuck]

Really? I’m not rehashing the ACA with a foreigner, and especially a Canadian.

OK - you can't. No worries.

And no, my mom is a woman and as such, not on your boi’s radar.

You've really got it bad for Trudeau. NTTAWWT

CC

 

[strummingram]

Slavery was already on its way out. The technology was already seeing to that. The succession was about states rights, plain and simple. And if you have issues with Trump's tariffs, then you definitely have to hate the North, because they put tariffs on farming equipment coming from England in order to prop up the industrial north. Essentially, the North was making it harder for the South to end slavery, and they did all of that for nothing more than more money.

If there is no slavery (or profits from slavery) there's no war. So, to act like slavery wasn't the reason is ignoring factual elements. Yes, the states carried more individual power prior to the war. they could have retained it if they hadn't been driven by the greed of the indignation of trying to own other human beings while proclaiming that "All men are created equal." It's American bullshit of "say one thing, do something else." Women were inferior, blacks were inferior, Indians were inferior. Only land-owning white males were created equal. I dunno if they actually believed that hypocritical bullshit on an individual basis, but many of them acted as if they did. I like to hope that, taken individually, they each saw the divine presence in every human being. That superior and inferior crap was their egos showing.

 

[strummingram]

OK - you can't. No worries.



You've really got it bad for Trudeau. NTTAWWT

CC

To have to resort to faggit is interesting.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

I’m just going by what the letters of secession state in a very plain and concise manner

The fact is that succession was a result of states rights, that involved slavery. So, to say that slavery played a part isn't entirely wrong, but it also isn't true that it was the main reason. It was one small part of a much bigger picture. It's just blown out of proportion nowadays because most everyone realizes that slavery is wrong, whereas actions like tanking the 9th and 10th Amendments are widely accepted.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

My mother is a prime example. She was born in 1946, grew up in southern VA. Her senior year in high school, they were finally integrated. Anyway, she's probably less racist than many of her peers under the same conditions. But, she can be telling me about something that happened in the grocery store and "This black girl was ringing me up and..." kinda thing. I always stop her and laugh... "Why are you telling me she was black?" She doesn't even realize it.

What's interesting is that a race descriptor gets more of a raised eyebrow than any other descriptor. Would you respond asking her why she was telling you the cashier was blonde, short, old, etc.?

 

[NoleSoup4U]

If there is no slavery (or profits from slavery) there's no war. So, to act like slavery wasn't the reason is ignoring factual elements. Yes, the states carried more individual power prior to the war. they could have retained it if they hadn't been driven by the greed of the indignation of trying to own other human beings while proclaiming that "All men are created equal." It's American bullshit of "say one thing, do something else." Women were inferior, blacks were inferior, Indians were inferior. Only land-owning white males were created equal. I dunno if they actually believed that hypocritical bullshit on an individual basis, but many of them acted as if they did. I like to hope that, taken individually, they each saw the divine presence in every human being. That superior and inferior crap was their egos showing.

I never said that slavery didn't play a part. It just wasn't nearly as big of a part as people try to claim. Trying to blame the Civil War on slavery is nothing but virtue signalling. The issue was much more complex.

 

[dadika13]

I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.-Abraham Lincoln

You conveniently left out the second part of this quote said literally right after the word position....

...but I hold that notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man.

Come on man.

 

[dadika13]

I never said that slavery didn't play a part. It just wasn't nearly as big of a part as people try to claim. Trying to blame the Civil War on slavery is nothing but virtue signalling. The issue was much more complex.

Oh yeah? Then what caused the Civil War?

 

[strummingram]

I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.-Abraham Lincoln

There ya go! Even the guy that the abolitionists decided to get behind was convinced that whites were superior! That gives a perfect contrast to the resolve of those who were fighting to KEEP slavery intact.

And, Lincoln, like others, came to realize he was wrong. Politicians pander and lie to gain favor. I could quote quite a few people who were movers and shakers, but didn't hold office. They needed to believe that blacks were inferior so their conscience wasn't too damaged by the knowledge of the inhumanity versus their fat wallet.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

What's interesting is that a race descriptor gets more of a raised eyebrow than any other descriptor. Would you respond asking her why she was telling you the cashier was blonde, short, old, etc.?

I'm hoping that one of these days the black community builds up enough self-confidence that racial terms no longer affect them like they do. That's the only way this thing is going to be resolved. As long as you let yourself be triggered by words, people will use those words against you. Your best defense is to realize that they're only words.

 

[dadika13]

Slavery was already on its way out.

Dude. Barely. 33.95% in 1790 and 32.27% in 1860

https://faculty.weber.edu/kmackay/statistics_on_slavery.htm

You're really bad at history. I've had to fact check you constantly over the past few months.

 

[strummingram]

I never said that slavery didn't play a part. It just wasn't nearly as big of a part as people try to claim. Trying to blame the Civil War on slavery is nothing but virtue signalling. The issue was much more complex.

It is complex. But, people who try to minimize slavery are seen as fools, because it is a foolish idea. If there's no slavery, there's no profit, and there's no discrepancy. Slavery is the keystone... period. It's the common thread through all of it.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Oh yeah? Then what caused the Civil War?

I've already answered this mutiple times in this thread. There were states rights, of which slavery was one, and tariff issues.

 

[strummingram]

I'm hoping that one of these days the black community builds up enough self-confidence that racial terms no longer affect them like they do. That's the only way this thing is going to be resolved. As long as you let yourself be triggered by words, people will use those words against you. Your best defense is to realize that they're only words.

I agree with this.

I love Lenny Bruce's take on it:

NSFW

 

[dadika13]

I've already answered this mutiple times in this thread. There were states rights, of which slavery was one, and tariff issues.

A states right to what?

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Dude. Barely. 33.95% in 1790 and 32.27% in 1860

https://faculty.weber.edu/kmackay/statistics_on_slavery.htm

You're really bad at history. I've had to fact check you constantly over the past few months.

Sure you have. You don't even understand my argument. How can you fact check something that you don't understand?

 

[dadika13]

Sure you have. You don't even understand my argument. How can you fact check something that you don't understand?

You said slavery was on its way out. The stats don't support that whatsoever. It decreased by 1.7% over 70 years.

Again, I hate to say shit like this, but you're out of your league here man. I've had to do literally thousands of hours of research and writing on this shit.

 

[strummingram]

Sure you have. You don't even understand my argument. How can you fact check something that you don't understand?

You're just wrong here... admit that and drop this intellectual subterfuge act.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I'm hoping that one of these days the black community builds up enough self-confidence that racial terms no longer affect them like they do. That's the only way this thing is going to be resolved. As long as you let yourself be triggered by words, people will use those words against you. Your best defense is to realize that they're only words.

Yes, I've made this point on here several times, that it's amazing that grown adults can't understand something we all learned in elementary school "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me".

 

[NoleSoup4U]

You said slavery was on its way out. The stats don't support that whatsoever. It decreased by 1.7% over 70 years.

Again, I hate to say shit like this, but you're out of your league here man. I've had to do literally thousands of hours of research and writing on this shit.

So, are you telling me that technology wouldn't have ended slavery? Because that's the argument I was making there.

 

[nctransplant]

Keto

#metoo

 

[dadika13]

So, are you telling me that technology wouldn't have ended slavery? Because that's the argument I was making there.

My argument, a few posts up, was that it would have eventually died out due to a number of reasons (economic more than anything) about 50 years after the Civil War.

 

[cletusnow]

There ya go! Even the guy that the abolitionists decided to get behind was convinced that whites were superior! That gives a perfect contrast to the resolve of those who were fighting to KEEP slavery intact.

And, Lincoln, like others, came to realize he was wrong. Politicians pander and lie to gain favor. I could quote quite a few people who were movers and shakers, but didn't hold office. They needed to believe that blacks were inferior so their conscience wasn't too damaged by the knowledge of the inhumanity versus their fat wallet.

No, not that he was wrong, but that it was politically advantageous to change his policy. He changed to sell the war to the people of the North.

 

[dadika13]

No, not that he was wrong, but that it was politically advantageous to change his policy. He changed to sell the war to the people of the North.

Dude, you didn't quote his entire quote. He finished the quote by saying blacks should have equal rights to whites.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

(economic more than anything)

Yeah, that's called technology, and I don't think it would have taken that long if the North wouldn't have been interfering in trade.

 

[dadika13]

Yeah, that's called technology, and I don't think it would have taken that long if the North wouldn't have been interfering in trade.

Wrote a 50 page theory on this...if the South had actually won the war, it would have been in the North's best interest to not interfere with anything. Too long to type out all of the different complexities of an independent CSA.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Wrote a 50 page theory on this...if the South had actually won the war, it would have been in the North's best interest to not interfere with anything. Too long to type out all of the different complexities of an independent CSA.

I'm talking about pre-war, not post-war. If the South had actually won, the destruction caused by the war, in and of itself, would have prolonged slavery.

 

[tarheel0910]

Oh yeah? Then what caused the Civil War?

 

[NoleSoup4U]

That's ideal... just see a person.

My mother is a prime example. She was born in 1946, grew up in southern VA. Her senior year in high school, they were finally integrated. Anyway, she's probably less racist than many of her peers under the same conditions. But, she can be telling me about something that happened in the grocery store and "This black girl was ringing me up and..." kinda thing. I always stop her and laugh... "Why are you telling me she was black?" She doesn't even realize it.

That's hard to get away from. A lot of us are hardwired that way. I've worked hard to get away from that type of thought, but my family was pretty religious (like Jesus religious, not Pat Robertson religious), so it isn't as ingrained in me. I always like these Morgan Freeman interviews. He gets it.

 

[ticket2ride04]

But if we fact checked what he said, he was factually accurate. If you can argue semantics when it comes to things, so can he.

I can only assume you guys are talking about Noles4Soup. Do you really want to be defending that guy?

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Noles4Soup

 

[ticket2ride04]

Yes because he's factually correct. It doesn't matter if it decreased .000001. That's a decrease. Therefore, he's right and yes, I want to defend that.

He might be factually correct but it doesn’t prove his point. Just the opposite, IMO.

But troll on.

 

[ticket2ride04]

Spoiler

i know what I do

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Spoiler

i know what I do

Of course, I knew that. Just like we all know you knew exactly who he was referring to because you don't have him on ignore.

Spoiler: But...

I like to play along too

 

[ticket2ride04]

Of course, I knew that. Just like we all know you knew exactly who he was referring to because you don't have him on ignore.

Spoiler: But...

I like to play along too

He’s the only person I have on ignore. And he’s the only person here who makes up stuff to support his shit arguments. Easy deduction, Watson.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

He’s the only person I have on ignore. And he’s the only person here who makes up stuff to support his shit arguments. Easy deduction, Watson.

Yawn. I'm glad that my opinions trigger other people with opinions so much.

How do these people navigate every day life? Do they just surround themselves with yes men?

 

[NoleSoup4U]

BTW, just so everyone knows. The straw that broke ticket's back was my argument that, along a long enough timeline, the wall would pay for itself. I didn't specify how long it would take, only that it would eventually happen. That's what he blew his gasket over. Go figure. Lulz!

 

[strummingram]

That's hard to get away from. A lot of us are hardwired that way. I've worked hard to get away from that type of thought, but my family was pretty religious (like Jesus religious, not Pat Robertson religious), so it isn't as ingrained in me. I always like these Morgan Freeman interviews. He gets it.

View embedded media

He does get it... from a certain point of view. To say "If we don't talk about it, it's not there." That's getting there, but it's not a reality. The words are just thoughts made into audible sounds that others recognize. The thoughts are still there, but not verbalized... then racism is still there. Actions speak louder than words, we know that. It's a process, and it's ongoing.

Now, I do agree that on many occasions race has been, is used, and will be used as a crutch, or a chip to gain favor or as a cop-out. As he said with religion (I think)- People make a lot of money off of the differences in religion, ethnicity, social status, etc.. And, depending on what segment of the culture/society you're dealing with, the words still trigger thoughts and feelings instantly. And, we've been conditioned to ignore context and just hear sounds.

I have heard some historians say that each generation must fight the civil war in its own way. I believe that. I believe that it is something we must be vigilant to in order to stop it from going back, and actively contribute to making it go forward. I think it is quite obvious that it has come a LONG way! It's come a very long way just in my lifetime. My father went to segregated schools his entire life. If a black person came to his house, they came to the back door. And, people nowadays really never consider how deep something simple like that can leave a mark on a society.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Are you assuming that one day there will be no racists living among us?

This is what I was going to ask. Racism is always going to be there. It's acting upon that racism that is the problem. I do think I get what Strumm is saying here. At some point racism might be a thing of the past, but that won't happen in my lifetime.