Orlando Night Club Shooting

[gunslingerdick]

Really??? Muslims? The extremists, sure! but a religion??? hmmmm That dude yesterday was born here, he was a homophobic extremist for ISIS apparently but his family isn't. I think doing that will piss the extremists off even more!

It probably will piss them off more. And at first thought I'd say, "well let them be pissed...over there." But I don't have the answers. I just know that what we're currently doing isn't working. What would you suggest? Keep on with the same way of doing things?

 

[strummingram]

If you want to live in a peaceful world, you simply cannot have this melting pot of people with differing opinions and ideologies. It...Will...Not...Work.

So, the exact opposite of what made us "great" is what will make us great again? Interesting.

I'd say those leaders who had the stones to champion the notion of the United States being "the only nation in the world that (willingly) allows in any-and-every nationality, religious group, sexuality choice...you name it." were what made the USA a great place to be. To have the courage to allow them all to melt together and share the marvels of their cultures and the unique aspects of their nature. To realize we have far more in common than we ever knew. THAT makes us great.

If we're going to have leaders, and citizens, who are scared to death of everything "foreign" to them? Then, not only will we cease to be "great", but we will cease to be at all.

 

[chick_bleeds_carolina_blue]

It probably will piss them off more. And at first thought I'd say, "well let them be pissed...over there." But I don't have the answers. I just know that what we're currently doing isn't working. What would you suggest? Keep on with the same way of doing things?

well, it seems to me if that guy yesterday was on the FBI radar, he should not have been able to buy an assault weapon to begin with or they could make people like that have a one year wait and background check FIRST. I really don't know the answer but I guess just having better background checks on people who are possibly a threat, but it won't stop the ones that steal weapons, so I really don't know. I just don't think deporting legal Muslims is the answer.

 

[UNC '92]

I never said any of you said we should blow up all Muslims. What are you referring to exactly that I said? I said the people in Charleston did not state they wanted to blow up all the flag toting racists like the kid that killed their members/loved ones.

I'm using your logic. No one here thinks we should go after every Muslim as you suggested we might due to our lack of understanding.

...Perfect example is those beautiful people in Charleston and how they reacted to that horrible tragedy they endured. They did not riot and retaliate by wanting to blow up every dumbass, flag toting redneck spewing hate and kill them in return, they chose to forgive and live in peace and pray for we as human beings find a way to live together in love and peace, something most of you twits obviously don't understand....

No one here is advocating for going after Muslims. I do advocate for going after the guilty party or parties if they didn't take the cowardly way out first.

 

[Blue2010]

I'm not scared of anything foreign. Because I played basketball growing up, I wound up on teams - and became great friends with - guys from Iceland, Finland, Germany...never a problem. Friends in college were Korean. Never been close with anyone muslim...but not by choice, just through school / career have never crossed paths.

What I have learned is that in ANY set up -- household, job place, and yes...even up to the country level, you have to have solid "internal control." The levels obviously vary, but you have to have it. As a country, we are weak as hell. That is a problem. Until that is fixed, our current set up continues spiraling out of control. Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

If we're going to have leaders, and citizens, who are scared to death of everything "foreign" to them? Then, not only will we cease to be "great", but we will cease to be at all.

I'd argue that if we have leaders that aren't afraid of having people come over here and blow us up from the inside - that is when we will cease to be at all.

 

[gunslingerdick]

To have the courage to allow them all to melt together and share the marvels of their cultures and the unique aspects of their nature. To realize we have far more in common than we ever knew. THAT makes us great.
.

Ahh, the melting pot theory...that never came to fruition. If it did, we wouldn't have Little Italy, Chinatown, Hell's Kitchen and Little Havana. It doesn't work because immigrants want to enjoy all the benefits of "being American" but still hold onto their identity and heritage. And by and large, they choose to segregate themselves. I don't really blame them. It's human nature to go with what you know and where you feel comfortable. The salad bowl theory is far more attainable unless we're planning to tell immigrants - "Leave your heritage at the door. You'll speak English and only English. You'll fly one flag and that's the American flag and you'll start watching the NFL as soon as you get settled."

 

[strummingram]

I'd argue that if we have leaders that aren't afraid of having people come over here and blow us up from the inside - that is when we will cease to be at all.

Of course you would argue that position! You're part of the people who are scared to death. I understand WHY you are, but I don't share your fear. I know it will sound like an insult, but I don't mean it to be that at all.

 

[strummingram]

Ahh, the melting pot theory...that never came to fruition. If it did, we wouldn't have Little Italy, Chinatown, Hell's Kitchen and Little Havana. It doesn't work because immigrants want to enjoy all the benefits of "being American" but still hold onto their identity and heritage. And by and large, they choose to segregate themselves. I don't really blame them. It's human nature to go with what you know and where you feel comfortable. The salad bowl theory is far more attainable unless we're planning to tell immigrants - "Leave your heritage at the door. You'll speak English and only English. You'll fly one flag and that's the American flag and you'll start watching the NFL as soon as you get settled."

Still drowning in fear. I'd throw you a life preserver, but you'd probably be afraid there was a bomb strapped to it.


And, all of those cultures are what created what we are today. It's no theory at all. There are still tribal members who want to preserve their tribal roots.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Still drowning in fear. I'd throw you a life preserver, but you'd probably be afraid there was a bomb strapped to it.

I'd rather drown.

Can you refute what I said?

 

[strummingram]

I'd rather drown.

Can you refute what I said?

That people retain their ancestral tribal attributes? Sure they do. That doesn't mean that they're always subversive and a threat to everyone else.

It's next to impossible to discuss this with you because you, by your own admission, are literally immersed in fear and you LIKE IT. So, there's no other truth for you. There's no other reality for you... except fear. That sounds like a miserable way to live. It's certainly not rational to me. I think I'd rather literally drown than live in that kind of fear.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I'd rather drown.

Can you refute what I said?

That people retain their ancestral tribal attributes? Sure they do. That doesn't mean that they're always subversive and a threat to everyone else.

It's next to impossible to discuss this with you because you, by your own admission, are literally immersed in fear and you LIKE IT. So, there's no other truth for you. There's no other reality for you... except fear. That sounds like a miserable way to live. It's certainly not rational to me. I think I'd rather literally drown than live in that kind of fear.

Soooo,...that's a "no"?

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Of course you would argue that position! You're part of the people who are scared to death. I understand WHY you are, but I don't share your fear. I know it will sound like an insult, but I don't mean it to be that at all.

I certainly don't take it as an insult. I take it as a compliment that you're saying I'm smart enough to be afraid of things that will kill me. I'm also deathly afraid of jumping in front of train going at full speed, so I'll try my best to avoid that as well. If you've conquered fear and no long are a slave to it - then you go ahead and jump in front of that train - and report back on how silly I was to be afraid of doing so in the first place.

 

[strummingram]

Soooo,...that's a "no"?

I just did it! Twice! Take a Xanax and find a pacifier.

Yes, people will still have an affinity for their ancestral roots. People in the South still have it for theirs (confederate flag, antebellum south, etc.). But, those roots do not prevent any of us from successfully assimilating to a universal existence with all the others. THAT is exactly what SUCCEEDED in America! It happened! It's happening! We managed to cultivate a melting pot. We can have our individuality and still collectively share a common identity. Will there be some who refuse to do that? Yes. Should we sacrifice the success and future success of it because a handful can't keep their sh*t wired tight? No, I don't think so.

 

[strummingram]

I certainly don't take it as an insult. I take it as a compliment that you're saying I'm smart enough to be afraid of things that will kill me. I'm also deathly afraid of jumping in front of train going at full speed, so I'll try my best to avoid that as well. If you've conquered fear and no long are a slave to it - then you go ahead and jump in front of that train - and report back on how silly I was to be afraid of doing so in the first place.

Jumping in front of a train is nowhere NEAR the same as being afraid of a religion. When you conquer THAT fear, and learn THAT distinction, report back.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Jumping in front of a train is nowhere NEAR the same as being afraid of a religion. When you conquer THAT fear, and learn THAT distinction, report back.

I'm not afraid of any religion. I recognize that a few terrorist groups have infiltrated a certain religion and are now using fear to convince their recruits to go kill people over here. Now, not everyone in that religion shares the views of those terrorist groups, but the percentages are much higher than those not in that religion that share the terrorist views. I'm a math guy - so I like to put my money where the odds are the greatest - I don't like to argue with statistics.

 

[chick_bleeds_carolina_blue]

I'm gonna take a wild guess here...... GSD is average.... Strum is HUGE! LOL

 

[strummingram]

I'm not afraid of any religion. I recognize that a few terrorist groups have infiltrated a certain religion and are now using fear to convince their recruits to go kill people over here. Now, not everyone in that religion shares the views of those terrorist groups, but the percentages are much higher than those not in that religion that share the terrorist views. I'm a math guy - so I like to put my money where the odds are the greatest - I don't like to argue with statistics.

Then, what exactly are you afraid of, and how, exactly, do you think it should be handled.

 

[strummingram]

This is bringing the "Freedom for Security" issue into play as well. Scared people don't value Freedom as much as security.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I just did it! Twice! Take a Xanax and find a pacifier.

Yes, people will still have an affinity for their ancestral roots. People in the South still have it for theirs (confederate flag, antebellum south, etc.). But, those roots do not prevent any of us from successfully assimilating to a universal existence with all the others. THAT is exactly what SUCCEEDED in America! It happened! It's happening! We managed to cultivate a melting pot. We can have our individuality and still collectively share a common identity. Will there be some who refuse to do that? Yes. Should we sacrifice the success and future success of it because a handful can't keep their sh*t wired tight? No, I don't think so.

What you are describing is the salad bowl and not the melting pot.

http://lajhsslab.com/peopling/people2.htm

http://www.hoover.org/research/melting-pots-and-salad-bowls

 

[gunslingerdick]

I'm gonna take a wild guess here...... GSD is average.... Strum is HUGE! LOL

Just shut up and go make less money than the guy doing your same job.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

Then, what exactly are you afraid of, and how, exactly, do you think it should be handled.

I'm afraid of being on a plane, or in a public place as was the case with this story, and being the victim of one of these terrorist mass killings (or having a friend/loved one be a victim). Now, I'm not deathly afraid of this, because the chances of it happening to me or someone I know are pretty small (again, based on statistics) - but I'm afraid enough of it that I'm cognizant that it's a non-zero possibility.

The way it should be handled is fairly easy. If there's a certain group of people who have been statistically proven to be more likely to commit these types of crimes (whether it be people who are over 7 feet tall, people with the first name "Peter", or oh say - I dunno - happen to practice the muslim religion), then they should be subject to more strict searches and monitoring. If one of those groups is 37 times more likely to commit an act of terror, then people of that group should be subjected to 37 times as many searches, 37 times as much surveillance/monitoring, etc. Again, just based on math/probability/statistics.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I'm not afraid of any religion. I recognize that a few terrorist groups have infiltrated a certain religion and are now using fear to convince their recruits to go kill people over here. Now, not everyone in that religion shares the views of those terrorist groups, but the percentages are much higher than those not in that religion that share the terrorist views. I'm a math guy - so I like to put my money where the odds are the greatest - I don't like to argue with statistics.

A betting man - a true statistician. I like it.

 

[chick_bleeds_carolina_blue]

Just shut up and go make less money than the guy doing your same job.

haha, the guys I work with wish! hahahahaha

 

[strummingram]

What you are describing is the salad bowl and not the melting pot.

http://lajhsslab.com/peopling/people2.htm

http://www.hoover.org/research/melting-pots-and-salad-bowls

Metaphors are not always an accurate verbalization of a condition. Then they start to dissect the damned metaphor, as demonstrated above in your links.

The main objective is to treat other people as you would wish to be treated. Deviating from that is something you do at your own risk. Melting pots and salad bowls are not literal equivalents to human behaviors and existence. You can resist the choice to treat others as you wish to be treated, or you can abide by it.

 

[chick_bleeds_carolina_blue]

Well, this is interesting.... the FBI just had a press conference and I heard an interesting part about this killer having been taunted and bullied at his job for being a Muslim.... I wonder what that would do to a person? I wonder what would happen to us if every time we walked in the door at work someone was treating us like sh*t because of our beliefs? No one has ever done that to me before

 

[gunslingerdick]

Metaphors are not always an accurate verbalization of a condition. Then they start to dissect the damned metaphor, as demonstrated above in your links.

The main objective is to treat other people as you would wish to be treated. Deviating from that is something you do at your own risk. Melting pots and salad bowls are not literal equivalents to human behaviors and existence. You can resist the choice to treat others as you wish to be treated, or you can abide by it.

So, we are in agreement that you incorrectly characterized the melting pot theory?

 

[Blue2010]

Well, this is interesting.... the FBI just had a press conference and I heard an interesting part about this killer having been taunted and bullied at his job for being a Muslim.... I wonder what that would do to a person? I wonder what would happen to us if every time we walked in the door at work someone was treating us like sh*t because of our beliefs? No one has ever done that to me before

Unless the folks at the club were his coworkers, this is another invalid argument. I understand the angle you're trying to come from...but I just do not believe it will work. Not because it is a bad approach, but because you're placing WAY too much trust and belief in the people you're expecting to follow through with this.

 

[chick_bleeds_carolina_blue]

The way it should be handled is fairly easy. If there's a certain group of people who have been statistically proven to be more likely to commit these types of crimes (whether it be people who are over 7 feet tall, people with the first name "Peter", or oh say - I dunno - happen to practice the muslim religion), then they should be subject to more strict searches and monitoring. If one of those groups is 37 times more likely to commit an act of terror, then people of that group should be subjected to 37 times as many searches, 37 times as much surveillance/monitoring, etc. Again, just based on math/probability/statistics.

Well, that would be a good idea. I'd like to further that and have anyone who is a die-hard democrat or republican be subjected to the same.

 

[strummingram]

So, we are in agreement that you incorrectly characterized the melting pot theory?

No, we aren't. Keep focusing on the metaphor, I guess.

 

[chick_bleeds_carolina_blue]

Unless the folks at the club were his coworkers, this is another invalid argument. I understand the angle you're trying to come from...but I just do not believe it will work. Not because it is a bad approach, but because you're placing WAY too much trust and belief in the people you're expecting to follow through with this.

You're not getting anything I say today... I think the reason the guy killed the people at the club was because he hated gay people but I am saying it seems his anger had been building for a long time and people taunting him for being a Muslim probably contributed to it as well in a way. sheesh!

 

[strummingram]

Well, this is interesting.... the FBI just had a press conference and I heard an interesting part about this killer having been taunted and bullied at his job for being a Muslim.... I wonder what that would do to a person? I wonder what would happen to us if every time we walked in the door at work someone was treating us like sh*t because of our beliefs? No one has ever done that to me before

Chalk-up another win for FEAR! Fear of him created a fear of us FOR him!

Fear wins, we lose.

 

[chick_bleeds_carolina_blue]

oh well, I'm done.... I have $48.00 per hour to make! (and no, I'm not hooking! haha I do medical records!)

 

[strummingram]

I'm afraid of being on a plane, or in a public place as was the case with this story, and being the victim of one of these terrorist mass killings (or having a friend/loved one be a victim). Now, I'm not deathly afraid of this, because the chances of it happening to me or someone I know are pretty small (again, based on statistics) - but I'm afraid enough of it that I'm cognizant that it's a non-zero possibility.

The way it should be handled is fairly easy. If there's a certain group of people who have been statistically proven to be more likely to commit these types of crimes (whether it be people who are over 7 feet tall, people with the first name "Peter", or oh say - I dunno - happen to practice the muslim religion), then they should be subject to more strict searches and monitoring. If one of those groups is 37 times more likely to commit an act of terror, then people of that group should be subjected to 37 times as many searches, 37 times as much surveillance/monitoring, etc. Again, just based on math/probability/statistics.

Math and statistics are reliable... usually. In this case, there are going to be some unintended consequences that are not going to be good and when those consequences occur, you'll be using the slide-rule and abacus again and those tools will be useless.

I'm in agreement that these people who do these things seem to have common attributes. But, I wouldn't want to be labeled as being a threat to society because I was a white male who didn't practice any religion, just because a lot of mass murders were being committed by the same demographic. Maybe some of this has to happen in order for a greater correction to be made. It's all working out, of that I'm sure.

 

[Blue2010]

You're not getting anything I say today... I think the reason the guy killed the people at the club was because he hated gay people but I am saying it seems his anger had been building for a long time and people taunting him for being a Muslim probably contributed to it as well in a way. sheesh!

I do actually. It's pretty basic -- the poor bullied guy uprises to show everyone how tough he really is. This isn't a new concept. We just disagree on the approach to dealing with it. I was bullied growing up...kids beat the crap out of me b/c I was a quiet, introverted kid with glasses and braces. My own teacher wrote "How's that silver spoon working out for you now, kid?" on my end of year plaque thing we got in 5th grade (never mind the fact that I was, at this time, adopted...house routinely broken into, house caught fire and damn near burnt to the ground...parents divorced, etc). I never played the victim card. I never ran off to find some cult feeding those emotions with the hope of shooting up the place. I've become one of the most (quietly) arrogant sum-bitches you'd ever come across b/c every day I'm fueled by what that felt like growing up and CHOSE to use it in a more positive way to be a better person, a better parent, and loving the fact that those folks now ask me if I would like paper or plastic.

I humbly apologize, but please spare me the "he was bullied" line. I have zero sympathy.

 

[strummingram]

I humbly apologize, but please spare me the "he was bullied" line. I have zero sympathy.

But, apparently you do have (or should have) some EMPATHY. Anyone who has been bullied probably does.

 

[gunslingerdick]

So should we fear statistics?

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I humbly apologize, but please spare me the "he was bullied" line. I have zero sympathy.

Yup. Bullying and teasing someone is wrong - no two ways about it. But it's not nearly as wrong as going and shooting up a place - sometimes life is tough and people need to deal with problems such as being bullied in a way that doesn't involve killing a bunch of innocent people.

There should be no excuses made for the guy because he was getting picked on. Sort of a "two wrongs don't make a right" situation. We don't go around saying "Oh good job, you got bullied today and didn't go shoot up a club!" - so we shouldn't be using the bullying angle as an excuse for doing just that.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

@strummingram I'm not going to bother to go back and quote all your posts, but your "I'm just gonna choose peace and love in my heart" plan ain't gonna work, dude. It may make you feel better but it isn't going to stop extremists from killing people in America. So you look extremely naive with your constant repetition of "I choose to be peaceful." Well that's great, others do not choose the same. Would it be awesome if they did? Yes. But they don't and they won't.

@chick_bleeds_carolina_blue awww the poor widdle Muslim was made fun of at work??

Too fuggin bad. Be a man and either A) suck it up, B) punch the bullies in the face and settle it mano y mano, or C) report them to your company's HR. Him potentially being bullied is zero excuse for shooting one person, much less 50+. I was bullied as a kid in elementary school because one of my hands is noticeably different than normal because of a birth defect. Did I turn into a mass murderer as an adult? Uhhh, no. It just hardened me and thickened up my skin. Did it upset me a lot at the time? Absolutely. But I sacked up and got over it. People who commit violent atrocities like this because of ANY reason are weak, cowardly, disgusting human beings.

The verbal word is NOT cause to hurt someone. That's basic law. Someone can walk up to you and call you a bitch 1,000 times in a row and it gives you ZERO legal cause to harm them. Sorry, life is tough. Sticks and stones, love.

ETA: @Blue2010 's story about bullying is a much better example than mine.

 

[Blue2010]

But, apparently you do have (or should have) some EMPATHY. Anyone who has been bullied probably does.

Empathy means you understand where someone else is coming from...that only equips you to better understand how to deal with them. Which, unfortunately for us in this thread, gets us back to Square One.