I could be mistaken but wasn't Marcus Paige projected as a first round pick after his sophomore season?
PJ Washington OV
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I glanced over his post but thought it was more to do with the "stigma" of UNC "making" guys stay 3-4 years instead of leaving when they're assured of a first round pick. I believe that is part of the perception problem you guys have been discussing in various recruiting threads.
I think the discussion was OAD (Paige being a sophomore wouldn't count) and lottery picks (late first round wouldn't count either).
Well, I think he was referring to OADs, and his 2nd post would suggest this too. But I can address that too:
Although we don't have a long list of OADs, the idea that we're telling guys to stay 3 years or longer is:
- not correct
- not realistic; no one can make these guys stay if they don't want to.
The scandal also affected our ability to recruit OADs in the 2015 and 2016 recruiting classes. 2017 is the first class we've been this entrenched in multiple 5 * recruitments at this point in time.
As far as OADs, It's kind of like an endless loop of flawed logic:
Roy doesn't have OADs. Why? Because he doesn't have a long history with OADs. Why? Because OADs commit elsewhere? Why? Because Roy doesn't have OADs
It's not like Roy isn't recruiting these guys. So this "stigma", while it still lingers, just doesn't make sense. Henry Ellenson went to Marquette and was still a first round pick. Jaylen Brown went to Cal and was the 3rd pick in the draft. Mudiay, went to freaking China and was still a lottery pick. Would any of their chances have been dampened for some reason if he had went to UNC?
Honestly we just need that 1 guy who can kick that myth that you can't be OAD at UNC. Because there's really no justifiable reason for this.
TL;DR We aren't telling/forcing our players to stay, it's their choice. The scandal set our recruiting efforts back a few years. We really just need that one guy who can show that you can be OAD at UNC just as you could at Duke and UK or Marquette and Cal.
Granted, this is my opinion, and some have different reasons/views on our recruiting troubles.
If anyone thinks you can "force" kids to stay nowadays then they are living in a dream world.
Well... I'm not sure what AZ can claim for NBA star power --- they'll push their loaded '17 class and the chance to play with Ayton and a "chance" for a Natty, but make no mistake --- Miller is dirty, not only from a negative recruiting aspect (remember Markannen?) but from downright cheating. I'm hoping the Washingtons won't be susceptible to either of those sorts of shenanigans, but I ALWAYS worry about one of our prospects making it out of Tucson unscathed. kentucky has the stronger NBA case obviously and of course Calipari's a master salesman plus his skuzzy history speaks for itself.
PJ's dad may be the wild card --- i dunno for sure, something Clint said makes me think so --- but I am sure PJ himself has a very positive affinity for Carolina. He had a great two visits, had the best OV hosts he could've asked for in our resident fun-loving goofballs JB and Theo. Moreover, it comes through clearly in his comments that PJ "gets" what Carolina Basketball and our shade of blue is about..And of course, we've got the head man going Full-Roy on him.
As for the NBA, PJ made a point of saying in a recent interview that he can "get to the NBA from anywhere", and he has to know that if he signs here he'll waltz into a starting position as a hybrid-4 beside Tony B. and join an experienced team (not to mention Jalek) with a good chance at another FF run. And whether he wants to be OAD or 2AD, he'll be on a high-profile stage in the best league in the country in a great place supported by an unmatched alumni basketball family. There ya go --- just gave Roy's pitch. So that's all we can ask... and hope that's enough and that it turns out our way.
Gary, you make some good points and they make a lot of sense. I'm hoping like crazy that PJ signs with the Heels. WWW may be a big factor here that tip it for Kentucky. For example, WWW could make a handshake deal with the father that once PJ signs his first shoe deal the Nike Shoe Rep invites the father to attend the signing party at the Shoe Rep's home. At the party, the Nike Shoe Rep gives PJ's father $100,000 in cash. The NCAA can't do anything about this even if they knew about. This happens ......several different scenarios. Sad, but true. PJ may love UNC, but the decision may not be his. The father already has the head coach job at Findlay Prep coaching his son. A Shoe Rep or WWW probably made that happen. This is a dirty business. Bottomline, there is nothing illegal here, just dirty stuff.
Dude, it's illegal. It's an improper benefit for any kid, his family, his handler, etc. to receive money from any booster, shoe company, etc.
If the NCAA knew about the specific scenario you just mentioned they could absolutely consider him ineligible as an amateur athlete.
If the scenario steat describes is what's happening, then why wouldn't pj have already signed with Uk? Or are you going to tell me he's just running out the string to make it look good? Those are some pretty serious claims your making about www etc. as Dadika says, those are most certainly offensable ncaa infractions.
For the record, this absolutely happens. But to say it is allowed by the NCAA is just not correct.
Hey, when is the next "sale" for premium like we had that one year where if you subscribed for a year you got $100 off the fan store!
Think I am starting to prefer some real information.
Think I am starting to prefer some real information.
Beat me to it. Kid had OAD aspirations coming outta HS for pete's sake.
WCS isn't a really good example anyways.
For all the good that Calipari has done with getting some of his recruits to the draft/lotto, he has his misses also. The Harrisons are a good example.
For all the good that Calipari has done with getting some of his recruits to the draft/lotto, he has his misses also. The Harrisons are a good example.
Steat, you just made my head hurt in that I SO hope Wes ain't involved in this one, and that Paul has more sense than that. He's got a good coaching gig and PJ is a sure-fire NBA player who will get paid legally down the road. And actually what you describe IS against NCAA rules, but it's extremely difficult under the current rules regime to prove a quid pro quo, so yes it goes on a lot (cough, cough, kentucky, cough).
As for the Washingtons, I haven't heard any scuttlebutt thus far about Wes having his hands in it, but I know someone who knows that wanker, so now I gotta go ask. Curse you, sir!
This happens "after" PJ declares for the draft. The NCAA can't touch it. No money exchanges hands until after the player declares for the draft. I'm not saying this will happen or is under discussion with PJ's father. What I'm saying is this happens in the industry. WWW has been a middle man for years and the NCAA can't touch him. In fact, know one really knows what WWW does but he is a very effective middle man. There are numerous NBA players that love WWW. If you think that PJ's father got the Findlay Prep job by submitting a resume I have some beachfront property to sell you in North Dakota.
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Nothing happens until PJ declares for the draft. It's all handshakes and eye winks until that time. Udoka was a classic example. NCAA can't touch this. Arizona and Kansas have their Shoe connections also. The only thing that I have heard is that Kentucky is the clear favorite and it may not be PJ's decision. Spells like WWW to me.. Hope what I'm hearing is wrong.Steat, you just made my head hurt in that I SO hope Wes ain't involved in this one, and that Paul has more sense than that. He's got a good coaching gig and PJ is a sure-fire NBA player who will get paid legally down the road. And actually what you describe IS against NCAA rules, but it's extremely difficult under the current rules regime to prove a quid pro quo, so yes it goes on a lot (cough, cough, kentucky, cough).
As for the Washingtons, I haven't heard any scuttlebutt thus far about Wes having his hands in it, but I know someone who knows that wanker, so now I gotta go ask. Curse you, sir!
Seriously, have you heard anything specifically to that effect in this case? As I said above, I haven't yet but now I'm sure as hell gonna ask around. Ok, well let me correct that --- yeah, there were some raised eyebrows when Paul got the job but I didn't hear anyone point to Wes.
Well yeah, we both know how that goes down --- I've heard instances of it recounted in gory detail, and that's why it's virtually impossible to prove a quid pro quo --- and yes, that's exactly what happened with Udoka, but on that one I heard about the goings-on contemporaneously and it's why I posted here not to expect him at Carolina during his recruitment.
DAMN I hope that's not the case here.
I hope what I'm hearing is not correct. Roy has done a good job and PJ rated his visit a 10. There is clear starting position for PJ and he would be showcased and there will be nothing stopping him from being OAD. There is nothing else that Roy can do. Some of these kids and parents only think $$$.
This happens when they are seniors in HS. I won't say how I know it, I'll just say that I do.
I believe this to be similar to how John Wall's handler got paid, only he was listed as the "agent" in the post draft shoe deal and likely made waaaaaay more than a measly 100K. I believe the deal was brokered by WWW before Wall ever set foot on the Kensucky Crampus. What the handler brought to the deal was Wall, period. Can I prove it? Nope. But I absolutely believe it happened.
aka William Wesley... runner, agent, broker (pick a term), been delivering talent to shady programs dating at least back to Denny Crum at Louisville back in the day... Calipari's talent buyer at Memphis, etc etc... go back and read the posts referencing him in the recent parts of this thread. You'll figure it out pretty fast.
You guys are portraying PJ's dad in a pretty negative light, I would urge caution in doing so. I have not heard anything that to me indicated his dad is going down this road. That doesn't mean he isn't, just means I have not seen or heard anything that indicates this.
First off, Findley Prep, I would think if there was influence that got Mr Washington the gig that it would have come from either UNLV or Arizona, both considered Findley pipelines more so than Ky. So far UNLV does not seem to be engaged with PJ and Arizona is about to over load at their front court that IMO will eliminate them. I struggle to see the connection that Kal or Ky or WWW would have been the reason he got the Findley gig and even if they had, he would have been well known to be in bed with Ky by now. If this were the case I do believe Kal would have shut us down totally by now, as example Randle recruitment.
No offense to PJ but IMO if Kal or WWW were going to spend this kind of capital it wouldn't be to snag PJ, it would be to snag Ayton or Bamba. Miller beat kal to the punch on Ayton but he is all in for Bamba, I believe a shoe deal is in the works there behind the scenes and we all know who facilitates that (WWW). I strongly believe that given his choice kal picks Bamba but he wants them both. I think he is playing PJ right now, painting the picture that he is the 4 that he most wants and that bamba could be the 5, problem with that is Nick Richards, just a matter of time that big man pops for Ky and reason is Bamba wants to be a 4 and Richards is that 5 that allows bamba to be the 4, the 4, the spot that PJ plays...
Bamba is not worried about who commits or who is there, he starts no matter what, no matter where he commits and he knows that. It is very questionable at best if PJ starts for Ky if they snag both bamba and Richards and the good money bet is they get both. I think Kal may be playing PJ, he has played Vanderbilt pretty much all summer, why would he not as well play PJ, he is painting a picture that PJ has a wide open starting spot, Bamba holds off to commit in the spring, by then all PJ can do is decommit which is not likely or just go with it. I hope Roy points this out to the kid and his dad but Roy does not like to get down and in the dirt with negative recruiting so I don't know that Roy will hammer this as hard as I would like.
Mean while the big men Roy has brought in from this class are more back to the basket type guys and guys not projected to start for a couple years, guys that would not be seen as road blocks to all the PT and starting spot that PJ wants and able to play behind a true center in Tony.
First off, Findley Prep, I would think if there was influence that got Mr Washington the gig that it would have come from either UNLV or Arizona, both considered Findley pipelines more so than Ky. So far UNLV does not seem to be engaged with PJ and Arizona is about to over load at their front court that IMO will eliminate them. I struggle to see the connection that Kal or Ky or WWW would have been the reason he got the Findley gig and even if they had, he would have been well known to be in bed with Ky by now. If this were the case I do believe Kal would have shut us down totally by now, as example Randle recruitment.
No offense to PJ but IMO if Kal or WWW were going to spend this kind of capital it wouldn't be to snag PJ, it would be to snag Ayton or Bamba. Miller beat kal to the punch on Ayton but he is all in for Bamba, I believe a shoe deal is in the works there behind the scenes and we all know who facilitates that (WWW). I strongly believe that given his choice kal picks Bamba but he wants them both. I think he is playing PJ right now, painting the picture that he is the 4 that he most wants and that bamba could be the 5, problem with that is Nick Richards, just a matter of time that big man pops for Ky and reason is Bamba wants to be a 4 and Richards is that 5 that allows bamba to be the 4, the 4, the spot that PJ plays...
Bamba is not worried about who commits or who is there, he starts no matter what, no matter where he commits and he knows that. It is very questionable at best if PJ starts for Ky if they snag both bamba and Richards and the good money bet is they get both. I think Kal may be playing PJ, he has played Vanderbilt pretty much all summer, why would he not as well play PJ, he is painting a picture that PJ has a wide open starting spot, Bamba holds off to commit in the spring, by then all PJ can do is decommit which is not likely or just go with it. I hope Roy points this out to the kid and his dad but Roy does not like to get down and in the dirt with negative recruiting so I don't know that Roy will hammer this as hard as I would like.
Mean while the big men Roy has brought in from this class are more back to the basket type guys and guys not projected to start for a couple years, guys that would not be seen as road blocks to all the PT and starting spot that PJ wants and able to play behind a true center in Tony.
Brian Clifton was the undercover agent. Roy and Brian were enemies for the longest time. Brian Clifton is now the head coach of Word o of God.
http://ampsportsduo.blogspot.com/2009/04/clifton-brothers-dark-side-of-john-wall.html
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I really don't think anyone but the most disillusioned of Duke fans thinks Roy is actually trying to get kids to stay against their best interest. Like any decent coach, he gives them his opinion based on what he is told from scouts and what he thinks. I don't know why this is hard to understand. Making the point that UNC hasn't had guys come in and leave early is worth discussing. Talking about UNC's lack of NBA stars is as well (though one could make an argument this should be used as a way to praise Roy for how well he gets them to perform in college). Saying he pressures them to stay has been said about K in the past as well (or that he gets them to leave his program), which is another reason it is so silly for Duke fans to go this route.
Projection, proschmection. Paige was always fighting the battle of being a small 2 guard in a PG's body. Maybe there were some publications that figured him as a first rounder after his terrific sophomore season. But that was due to his remarkable production. But make no mistake, there were always questions about Paige's ability to play NBA ball. Comparing him to some of these other guys (or using him as any indication of Carolina's ability to put players in the NBA) is flawed.
Alex was another one. That doesn't matter though. Sometimes it happens. He has enough successes the others don't matter (and they shouldn't). Cal does a good job with OAD type guys. There is no disputing that. It is this belief that coaches develop guys into NBA stars that is wrong. The NBA develops guys into NBA stars along with whatever natural ability they already have.
Does a good job at what? Encouraging them? I mean, who couldn't do a good job of it? It's simply recruiting guys that would have skipped college in the pre OAD era and then implementing the famed "dribble drive" (fancy words for just rolling the ball out). I guess there's some skill in managing the egos of a bunch of kids that think they're king of the world. But does he even teach basketball?
Kalipari when at Memphis actually called WWW the greatest ambassador for the program and he now delivers for kalipari at Ky.
According to Michael Jordan, he attributes a good deal of the success he had in the NBA to the grounding and teaching he received at UNC. The way you state it it comes off as kids basically waste their time in college and yet every year there are kids that had no choice but to play in college for multiple seasons and end up drafted that were not projected draftable prior to college.
Yep. And how ironic that Clifton was so anxious for Roy to recruit one of his players now that he's an actual coach. Credibility and stuff...
Clifton must've had to do some major mea cupla and kissin' up for that one.
..and then he had to walk that back when the chickens came home to roost there. IIRC Cal deflected by ratting out K and Boeheim for their affinity for ol' Wes.
