The Pac12 started the discussion about a month back. The Big Ten has now taken up the discussion. I am all for it for all athletes, in particular the big sports. Bring back the business of educating these student-athletes.
Thoughts on bringing back freshman ineligibility
- Thread starter AtlasShrugged
- Start date
Never going to happen, not should it, for any sport.
There are large numbers of scholarship athletes who are easily able to play and freshmen and do very well at school work. They should not be punished to try to prevent a fairly small number of athletes who are not so prepared from playing 1 year.
The actual problems can be hgandled by toughening the NCAA's standards. Perhaps adding 1 or 2 college prep courses would help.
I know that cutting back, preferably way back, on allowing GPAs to overrule poor standardized tests scores would help. All kinds of schools grossly inflate grades, and not just for athletes. There are many high schools at which a 2.5 GPA or higher is a given even fopr alleged colllege prepr classes if you show up to class and make no trouble and turn in all required work - even if you read on a 3rd grade level. Standardized tests highlight those issues and need to be taken much more seriously.
There should be minimal SAT/ACT scores, properl;y set, that cannot be overrided by high school GPAs. Everybody who makes that mark and the minimal # of college prep classes and HS GPA should be eligible from Day 1.
There are large numbers of scholarship athletes who are easily able to play and freshmen and do very well at school work. They should not be punished to try to prevent a fairly small number of athletes who are not so prepared from playing 1 year.
The actual problems can be hgandled by toughening the NCAA's standards. Perhaps adding 1 or 2 college prep courses would help.
I know that cutting back, preferably way back, on allowing GPAs to overrule poor standardized tests scores would help. All kinds of schools grossly inflate grades, and not just for athletes. There are many high schools at which a 2.5 GPA or higher is a given even fopr alleged colllege prepr classes if you show up to class and make no trouble and turn in all required work - even if you read on a 3rd grade level. Standardized tests highlight those issues and need to be taken much more seriously.
There should be minimal SAT/ACT scores, properl;y set, that cannot be overrided by high school GPAs. Everybody who makes that mark and the minimal # of college prep classes and HS GPA should be eligible from Day 1.
Unless it's done across the board, it's a terrible idea for a specific league or two to do it. Talk about crippling your basketball and/or football program, wow!
Agreed it would be a horrible idea for the Big Ten alone. If I'm a one an done I'm not thinking of Ohio State, Wisconsin, etc. While it would have advantages if everyone did it (the one an done players would go to Europe or equivalent and not waste the University or coaches time, the concept of a student athlete would return, players would not waste their time if they don't want to attend a University) if one conference does it they would die a quick death.
Totally against any move like this. As woad said, why punish freshman who can handle the studies and games/events (in all sports)
From a basketball standpoint it'd be suicide on the part of conferences or the NCAA. Players would just find another place to play.
From a basketball standpoint it'd be suicide on the part of conferences or the NCAA. Players would just find another place to play.
UK fan here do not let people fool you this is not about OADs nor is this about getting freshmen a chance to get use to college life. This is 100% about stipends and marketing rights. The Ed O'bannan case opened up a door and now these ADs and Presidents rather thin out college sports rather then giving money to the students. They rather kids go to the D league or arena football then to come to college and share the money with them.
This is merely a tactic to combat the NBA's one and done rule. All this will do is drive the talent overseas for a year before submitting for the NBA draft. Honestly, if the NBA would us their D League like baseball's farm system, a LOT of their issues would be fixed.
I agree Atlas, anyone that really is concerned about educating atheletes, anyone that wishes the game would go back to the ideals the NCAA was formed with would have to admit freshman being ineligible is an important step in allowing them to successfully transition from high school to college. Of course if all we care about is winning games then bringing in kids un-interested in the college experience and embracing the one & done aletletes as some programs have done is the way you want to go because you want to see the best talents play in the college game and not risk them jumping over seas or to the NBADL>.
I definitly the question of educating these kids is an important aspect to discuss. Either you give them an education in what they are primary interested in, meaning the sport they are on scholly for and done so by a circuliculm tailored for atheletes or you are interested in a broader education treating scholly atheletes the same as any other college student. What we do with the current system is we take kids that are admittly borderline college students int he first place and make it even harder for them by placing them in a college class room that they are not interested in and making it even harder by insisting that the majority of theit time as freshmen be spent preparing for the sport they are on scholly for. Those of you that went to college know, it was hard enough as a freshman to acclimate but how much harder would it have been to have not been as academically prepared as you were and to know that the majority of your time would not be able to be spent in study? IT is not easy for the motivated student, imagine it for the student that is not motivated by much more than the sport they love.
I guess I am a bit more of a purist than many, I want kids at UNC that want to be at UNC and not as interested in kids that look at being in college as the burden they must bare for a half a year before they skip off to the NBA to become a millionaire. While many of these kids can do that, many are now, foraking their future after pro ball as well as blowing thru those riches they are able to earn in their brief NBA careers so they can have satisfaction now. I do think the vast majority of kjids going one & done may be able to play the sport at that next level, they are still 19 & 20yr old kids not prepared for the world they are about to enter. I would l.ike to see kids as prepared for the world they enter as they are atheletically able to compete at the level they are about to enter in to.
It seems a majority of the best talents coming out of high school each year are not really interested in being in college and certainly do not seem to care as much where they spend that half a year unless it is a place that greases the tracks for them getting to the pro level as quickly as possible. You have to ask is that mindset in the best interest of the spirit that the NCAA was initially formed around, is it in the very best interest of the kid, ius it in the best interest of the college game or the NBA? Persoanlly I don't think it is and I would as well suggest that making freshmen ineligible alone is not the solution but IMO a part of the solution. The other part of the solution is providing these kids an educational expreince focused on what they are interested in and if that is a degree in what to look out for while involved in pro sports then so be it. Such a circculum could be developed by the NCAA and taught universally at each NCAA institution.
Mine is not a popular opinion on this topic but the world of scholar atheletes has changed and dramatically so for scholly basketballers. IT is time to begin to think outside of the box because the answers are not in the box most currently are looking in.
I like it. Separate those just auditioning for the nba from those wanting an education. Yea they'll go play elsewhere but so what. Imo the quality of play in ncaam will go up exponentially and actual coaching will become relevant again as opposed to just recruiting.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Posted from Rivals Mobile
I wish they would do it. The players who know they will not play in the league would benefit from a freshman year without being under a microscope. Let those clear one and dones go to Europe or the d league. The current rules do nothing but benefit the NBA. The college basketball I grew up loving has been dead for a long time. Senior night (for the most part) has become a game that recognizes players who didn't live up the hype and make the league sooner rather than the culmination of a college career.
I agree that this whole move is driven by the O'bannon case and other pending educational lawsuits as well as the whole OAD concept....I personally like the baseball model that is used where a kid has a choice coming out of high school to either go PRO, or stay in college for 3 years(If he's really interested in the education, he should have no problem getting his degree in 3 years before a possible professional career begins?)....Don't think that the NBAPA will go along with the baseball concept because they have always been unwilling to do so in the past, so the colleges are looking for any solution at the moment to not only answer the Pay for Play/Entitlement issue and lawsuit, but it's also an effort in my opinion to put the onus back on the high school kid and their family who are either wanting the kid to get an education, or want him to go straight to the NBA after high school?....If freshman are ruled ineligible, kids and their parents have a choice to make, and I sure hope that they will be informed?....Otherwise, more future stories about talented High School kids who fell thru the cracks, and ended-up dead,homeless or in jail after either their NBA dreams were shattered, or their stay in the league was brief, will likely be more of the norm in the future?....Hard to go back and get an education after the fact if you don't have the financial means or educational ability to actually pass the courses that you might take?
Schools should never be penalized for a kid who don't want an education....Instead, the prospective and atheletically talented high school student athelete needs to be given a choice right out of high school to go PRO, or get educated, so when the REAL WORLD comes calling sooner or later: They(the student atheletes) will have NO ONE to blame but themselves if they don't have the education needed to get a quality job or at least get their foot in the door for a better job or opportunity after their playing days are over.....It was their CHOICE as it should always be when High School ends!
This may be off base, but Kentucky may actually spend less on recruiting than other schools do because they specifically look for the OAD atheletes, and those kids are generally thinking more about the NBA than a degree from Kentucky, so the Wildcats can zero-in on those kids, and let those on the fence go elsewhere.....Didn't use to think that would work, but I'm starting to change my mind after seeing what this year's Kentucky team is doing....Not a lot of College Scholars on that team, but there are definitely several future millionaires and professional basketball players, and I think that Calipari has finally figured out the right way to manage and massage these OAD egos to avoid team chemistry problems, which means all the rest of the schools will be at a disadvantage to Kentucky talent-wise year-in and year-out for the foreseeable future unless changes are made to address the OAD issue....
Just my take?
Not going to happen. This is public policy 101 -- classic case of something that sounds good in theory (to some anyway, sounds dumb to me) but absolutely will not work in practice, if enacted.
Some excellent posts in this thread.
I agree with those saying it will not happen. You can make book on that.
Do feel it is driven by OAD rule and O'Bannon etc.
Really want to see a way to have OAD completely dismantled and have those players with no real interest in being true college students funneled in to other options such as NBDL or Europe.
Perhaps the Baseball rule would work?
I agree with those saying it will not happen. You can make book on that.
Do feel it is driven by OAD rule and O'Bannon etc.
Really want to see a way to have OAD completely dismantled and have those players with no real interest in being true college students funneled in to other options such as NBDL or Europe.
Perhaps the Baseball rule would work?
Baseball rule wouldn't work -- from the point of view of the athletes -- because too many basketball players are physically equipped to compete in the NBA right out of high school (not be a star, obviously, but at least make the roster as a role player).
That's the main problem with trying to get rid of the One-And-Done rule. Elite high school basketball players are so good that they truly can go right into the pros. They may lag behind from a technique or strength standpoint, but they can at least be serviceable. This isn't the case in baseball or football. In baseball, Bryce Harper and Mike Trout are extremely rare prospects that were ready for Major League action while still in their teens. Doesn't work that way. Generally, even if you forego college, you spend a minimum of a year in the minors, usually two or more. And obviously, in football, 99% of players cannot cut it in the NFL, from a sheer physicality and strength standpoint, until they're 3 years removed from high school like the rule states.
So among the three sports, basketball is definitely in a disadvantage (with respect to implementing rules designed to keep players ineligible from the league until a certain age or certain years removed from high school) because lots of high school hoopsters truly can compete straight out of high school or one year removed from high school, whereas 99% cannot compete in NFL or MLB, respectively, until 3-4 years removed from high school.
This post was edited on 2/23 4:47 PM by TarHeelNation11
THN11, I am not sure I am understanding your objection to the baseball rule. I am thinking your point is that too many elite players would jump straight from HS to the NBA and the college game would suffer because of that.
If indeed your point is that too many elite level guys will go pro from HS, I have no problem with that. There will still be plenty of very talented players who actually want or need to go to college.
Or am I misunderstanding you here?
If indeed your point is that too many elite level guys will go pro from HS, I have no problem with that. There will still be plenty of very talented players who actually want or need to go to college.
Or am I misunderstanding you here?
TN11, I agree with all that you posted, but isn't it time for the NBA to step up to the plate, and make changes to their NBDL training ground instead of letting the College teams spend all the time, effort and money to train their atheletes(Draft picks)?
I really don't see why the Baseball model would not work?....I mean it didn't hurt either Jordan or Worthy to stay until they were College Juniors.....If they can stay 3 years in College, and finish a great NBA career as Hall of Famers, why should it be so hard for today's high school youngsters to stay 3 years instead of 1 or NONE?
Imagine how much better the College game would be if this model were used?.....I agree that there are lots of kids that are physically ready for the NBA right out of high school, but are they also mentally prepared for the rigors of an 80+ game schedule in the NBA with shady characters around every corner looking to prey on them for their money?.....I know the NBA has come a long way in terms of helping the youngsters acclimate to the NBA lifestyle, but they can do so much more, and I think they should....Afterall, it's to their advantage to manage their product/business the best they can, and that includes the players in their league, and the ones to be drafted into the NBA....College has been the training ground for the NBA for far too long, so I say let the kids go if they don't want to commit to a 3-year education that can help them when the cheering stops.....
Personally, I think every NBA team ought to have a farm club team(NBDL), and have never understood why the NBA does not want to groom players that are not quite ready for the big time just yet, but were drafted by an NBA team?....Seems it would be a way to better train their own players instead of asking the Colleges to do it, which is the case nowadays....
I think that Colleges are trying to put the ONUS on the NBA to do something with this new/old idea of once again making freshman ineligible?.....The NBA knows that there will be a flood of High School players applying for the draft with many of them not ready if the NCAA decides to make freshman ineligible?....Will the NBA stand idly by, or will they and the NBAPA be willing to finally work with the Colleges to come up with a model that works for both sides, and will benefit not just the kids but also the game of basketball in the end?....
If this eligibility issue comes to fruition, the NBA will be flooded with players who may or may not help their league in the long run.....Of course, there may be another movement to bring back the ABA with all the extra players available?
You misunderstood. My point is that the baseball and football rules are not hotly contested (or even contested at all, unless your name is Maurice Clarett) by any party (athletes, pro league, or schools/fans) because:
1) from a physicality / skill standpoint, the rules accurately mirror reality. You cannot survive in the NFL, physically, until you're like 20 or older -- thus the 3-year rule make sense. And similarly, in baseball, players recognize that they're either spend 2-3 years in the minors so they opt to spend those 3 years in college instead. In basketball, you CAN play pro ball right out of high school. Not everyone can, but enough players can where they don't need college....yet they're forced to go for a year (this is where a healthy NBDL would be nice)
2) from the standpoint from the schools and the fans, the football and baseball rule creates continuity -- which fans like because they get to know players and schools like because they can get the players to graduate or almost graduate before going pro. In basketball, the 1-year rule takes away this continuity. No one knows any of the stars in college basketball until about February, and then they're gone two months later. This isn't so in college football.....you know the players because they're there for multiple years. It creates exciting matchups. See this year's Rose Bowl -- Heisman Trophy winner vs. Heisman Trophy winner. Something like that will NEVER happen in college basketball again.
^^ I'm still not sure I'm getting my point across very well. My main point is that the 1-year rule in basketball is a disadvantage to BOTH players and schools (and fans). In football (definitely) and baseball (most of the time), those sports' respective pro entry rules are beneficial for both the players and the schools (and their fans).
Now, as far as freshman ineligibility.......it sounds good in theory but it just won't work. Elite recruits like college ball because it gives them far greater exposure than the NBDL. Making them ineligible as freshman.....I don't know, it doesn't seem to benefit the players whatsoever. Only benefits the schools and fans.
So it's all a Catch-22. I don't see how to fix the situation.
Now, as far as freshman ineligibility.......it sounds good in theory but it just won't work. Elite recruits like college ball because it gives them far greater exposure than the NBDL. Making them ineligible as freshman.....I don't know, it doesn't seem to benefit the players whatsoever. Only benefits the schools and fans.
It would be great if the NBA did step to the plate and improve the NBDL as a viable option for those who don't want to go to college. But realistically, would the NBDL ever get anywhere near as much exposure as college basketball? Hell no. Colleges have built-in fanbases and those fans will always watch. NBDL teams don't have fanbases.
So it's all a Catch-22. I don't see how to fix the situation.
I couldn't agree with you more because I presently can't name one NBDL team?
I think the time has come to throw out the OAD model, giving a talented High School Kid and his family the choice to make one of two decisions?
1). Do I as a talented high school kid, put my name in the draft, and take a chance on either being drafted or NOT being drafted with the possibility of having to play in a half empty gymnasium(NBDL) in the middle of nowhere with my games being broadcast on channels that the viewing public may not be that familiar with, or possibilly play overseas?.....Also baring in mind, that the big payday that I and my family sought, and expected when we made this decision after high school, could be less, or even far less than I ever imagined with NO guarantees of ever making it to the LEAGUE?
or
2).Do I as a talented high school kid, choose to go to College for 3 years where I can work hard to get a my degree, master my skills, get a lot stronger, more mature, and increase the probability that when I do choose to put my name in the draft that the people in the know in the NBA, will know who I am, based on the countless national broadcast that I've been fortunate enough to be a part of while in College, which will hopefully give me an advantage, and an even better shot at the LEAGUE, than I would of had, had I chosen to enter the draft as a High School athelete?.....Did I mention that a kid will have the opportunity to earn his Degree before he leaves for the NBA?
As you mentioned above, some kids will be talented enough to where they will go straight to the NBA, but there will be others who choice number 2 would be a much wiser choice for them and their family to make if they are truly looking out for that young man's best interest?
The argument from the NBAPA has always been, and continues to be that NO talented kid should be prohibited from chasing his dream of becoming an NBA player after high school....That was the reason that it took so long for the OAD model to get passed, and it's the main sticking point to why the NBAPA is not willing to go any further by increasing the age limit, and the schools are beginning to see that this OAD model just isn't going to work without further adjustments, hence the speculation about freshman ineligibility?
So the NCAA and the Schools might as well go ahead, and let the kids go to the League right out of high school if that's what THEY and THEIR FAMILY really want them to do?....
If the NBA wants a bunch of 18 or 19yr old kids to play in their Men's league, have at it, is all I have to say(Think we all seen how that turned out before?)!
Since the Colleges are the institutions who are spending all the money recruiting these student atheletes, they like the NBA should be able to enter into a contract with a kid that will provide the student athelete a 4 year window to earn a degree, which was recently passed by the Power-5 conferences...This gives the talented student athelete a chance to earn his degree in only 3 years if he still wants to pursue his NBA Dream, so the baseball model is actually already set up to accomodate those student atheletes that choose to go to school, or will so in the future if the Baseball model is agreed upon by the NCAA and the NBA in the future?....I don't know what type of future stipend the Colleges are thinking about if any, but this is another area where I think the NBA could help the schools shoulder some of the possible expenditures for those prospective student atheletes who could become part of their fraternity after 3 years in College?.....Insurance for the most talented players is another area where the NBA could and should be involved IMO?
There's a lot smarter people than I am, who can figure this all out if they really wanted too?
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