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OOTB Carolina Basketball Discussion Thread

heelmanwilm said:
Filipowski is a freak. Hopefully he’s gone after this year
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especially if they keep letting him (and others) play like offensive linemen. I said last year that he was a monster and that how he was managed would depend on how they let him bulldoze people.

In the Ga. Tech game, one of their players on offense ran a hip into Bacot so hard it lifted him off the floor and moved him back a few feet...no whistle. That's a hell of a hard contact to lift Bacot off the floor, and a hell of a foul to let slide.. They started out letting F do the same thing last night and I thought it was curtains for us.
 
bluetoe said:
and I'm sure it's been said here a few times, but it turns out that beating dook without K is just as sweet as beating them with him.
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Meh... I dunno. I disagree completely. My brother and I were talking about how the dook rivalry dynamic has changed immensely with the new coaches. There's plenty of dislike for the players (Filipowski most of all last night- he was outright thug)... but, the coaches aren't the same. Davis and Scheyer are just much more reserved people. Now, their personalities and in-game behaviors could change, but, I doubt it.

When K retired, I knew the rivalry was going to take a hit. Beating a Jon Scheyer-coached team just doesn't mean as much, in my opinion, as beating the guy that you spent 40 years hating. I don't like Proctor (Yahoo Serious), and I've never liked Roach (perfect name), and Filipowski fulfills all the dookie traits. But, Scheyer is just... polite! I saw his post-game PC... nothing controversial. He basically gave UNC all the credit. I dislike Jeff Capel more than Jon Scheyer!
 
strummingram said:
Meh... I dunno. I disagree completely. My brother and I were talking about how the dook rivalry dynamic has changed immensely with the new coaches. There's plenty of dislike for the players (Filipowski most of all last night- he was outright thug)... but, the coaches aren't the same. Davis and Scheyer are just much more reserved people. Now, their personalities and in-game behaviors could change, but, I doubt it.

When K retired, I knew the rivalry was going to take a hit. Beating a Jon Scheyer-coached team just doesn't mean as much, in my opinion, as beating the guy that you spent 40 years hating. I don't like Proctor (Yahoo Serious), and I've never liked Roach (perfect name), and Filipowski fulfills all the dookie traits. But, Scheyer is just... polite! I saw his post-game PC... nothing controversial. He basically gave UNC all the credit. I dislike Jeff Capel more than Jon Scheyer!
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I hear you and I thought it was going to be like that for me too, but as it turns out, dook is dook and it is still the best rivalry in sports. I'll give that the edge might have been a tad sharper when beating K, but a lot of UNC fans agree with me...

 
bluetoe said:
I hear you and I thought it was going to be like that for me too, but as it turns out, dook is dook and it is still the best rivalry in sports. I'll give that the edge might have been a tad sharper when beating K, but a lot of UNC fans agree with me...

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Well, yeah... I'm sure the "rivalry" will endure. I think the dislike for the players can maintain. But, Jon Scheyer is never going to be hated like Coach K. Coach K was the best thing that ever happened to the UNC/dook rivalry. Before he came along, I barely noticed "Duke" in elementary school and jr. high. Back then, it was ALWAYS "State" that was the enemy. After K's entrance, and their ascendancy, that lasted until now, made it altogether different. Losing to Kansas didn't really matter in 22. Beating the dookies on the Saturday prior was the championship, for me.
 
bluetoe said:
especially if they keep letting him (and others) play like offensive linemen. I said last year that he was a monster and that how he was managed would depend on how they let him bulldoze people.

In the Ga. Tech game, one of their players on offense ran a hip into Bacot so hard it lifted him off the floor and moved him back a few feet...no whistle. That's a hell of a hard contact to lift Bacot off the floor, and a hell of a foul to let slide.. They started out letting F do the same thing last night and I thought it was curtains for us.
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I have uva and state grad friends and they used to lose their minds over the refs letting hansbrough lean/leap into the defender with his left shoulder then shoot that baby hook. Impossible to defend (except in the nba where they ate that shyt for lunch)
 
heelmanwilm said:
I have uva and state grad friends and they used to lose their minds over the refs letting hansbrough lean/leap into the defender with his left shoulder then shoot that baby hook. Impossible to defend (except in the nba where they ate that shyt for lunch)
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there's going to be bumping under the basket, it's inevitable and the ref has to decide what is to be allowed. I know Hans took full advantage. But what I'm talking about is the continuous barging of a defender in making way to the basket that is more football than basketball and that IMO should never be allowed..
 
strummingram said:
Well, yeah... I'm sure the "rivalry" will endure. I think the dislike for the players can maintain. But, Jon Scheyer is never going to be hated like Coach K. Coach K was the best thing that ever happened to the UNC/dook rivalry. Before he came along, I barely noticed "Duke" in elementary school and jr. high. Back then, it was ALWAYS "State" that was the enemy. After K's entrance, and their ascendancy, that lasted until now, made it altogether different. Losing to Kansas didn't really matter in 22. Beating the dookies on the Saturday prior was the championship, for me.
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I agree with what you're saying about the difference between Scheyer and K. Scheyer seems almost likeable, just sort of goofy. He's not someone you love to hate on like K was. I get it. But there's this. I disliked K because of his approach. But I wouldn't have minded him much at all if he wasn't always a threat to beat us. It was the neck and neck that made us love to beat dook so much, and doing it to K was like an extra added attraction.

I didn't care for Rick Barnes, for example, when he coached Clemson; but they weren't a constant threat to beat us and there wasn't the rivalry that developed with dook. Scheyer is obviously capable of gathering ridiculous talent and doing something with it. Beating him to me is going to be just about as sweet as beating K.

I'll ETA that before K there were several dook coaches who gave us a fit, and there was already a rivalry there.
 
ingram is climbing the charts for me as an all-timer…and you can tell he gets under the opponent’s skin, which we have never had enough of…got a ron artest vibe about him, just an all-around good player.
 
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bluetoe said:
I agree with what you're saying about the difference between Scheyer and K. Scheyer seems almost likeable, just sort of goofy. He's not someone you love to hate on like K was. I get it. But there's this. I disliked K because of his approach. But I wouldn't have minded him much at all if he wasn't always a threat to beat us. It was the neck and neck that made us love to beat dook so much, and doing it to K was like an extra added attraction.

I didn't care for Rick Barnes, for example, when he coached Clemson; but they weren't a constant threat to beat us and there wasn't the rivalry that developed with dook. Scheyer is obviously capable of gathering ridiculous talent and doing something with it. Beating him to me is going to be just about as sweet as beating K.

I'll ETA that before K there were several dook coaches who gave us a fit, and there was already a rivalry there.
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The rivalry got a huge, and sustained, boost with K's dominance. The dookies were never as good before him. You definitely need two good coaches to maintain the programs. Both need to be good to keep the rivalry strong. After Valvano, State never recovered.

I guess we'll see how well they can keep it going. Filipowski kept the fires burning as far as players being assholes.
 
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bluetoe said:
there's going to be bumping under the basket, it's inevitable and the ref has to decide what is to be allowed. I know Hans took full advantage. But what I'm talking about is the continuous barging of a defender in making way to the basket that is more football than basketball and that IMO should never be allowed..
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Both are offensive fouls that used to be called but aren’t anymore and it gives a distinct advantage to the heavier player. We should have collapsed on flip and made him pass the
Ball out or force a turnover. We let him bang away way too long unopposed.
 
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bluetoe said:
and I'm sure it's been said here a few times, but it turns out that beating dook without K is just as sweet as beating them with him.
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i have to disagree. Face doesnt have nearly the pissed off scowl and body language that The Rat did when losing ... and Face actually slowed down to shake Hubert's hand and exchange a few words when the game ended. it was MUCH more enjoyable beating Ratface.
 
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bleeduncblue said:
i have to disagree. Face doesnt have nearly the pissed off scowl and body language that The Rat did when losing ... and Face actually slowed down to shake Hubert's hand and exchange a few words when the game ended. it was MUCH more enjoyable beating Ratface.
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OK. Of course I enjoyed it when we beat K. I hated him as much as anyone. But I thought that maybe that was what it was all about, and now I find that beating our very-much-alive-and-kicking-without-K rival is just as good as it ever was. Maybe where we disagree is no disagreement at all. Maybe there are are two distinct constructs here...hating K and hating dook. The opportunity to hate K is over and done. But dook is an object of hate for me even without K. K was the face of dook basketball, and now it has another goofy face....but it's still dook and it feels just as good to get a win over them now as it did before..

If for some reason dook fell into a long-term non-competitive slump, I would be highly disappointed.
 
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bluetoe said:
. . . . . Maybe where we disagree is no disagreement at all. Maybe there are are two distinct constructs here...hating K and hating dook. . . .

If for some reason dook fell into a long-term non-competitive slump, I would be highly disappointed.
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This is me 100%. Sometimes the stars and universe align resulting in something: this happened for K at Dook. Don't get me wrong, I have to give him his due and grudgingly acknowledge his abilities, but like all coaches, some luck is involved (Tom Brady is looking at you Mr. Belichick). Just the mere fact that he had those great teams that EVERYONE always stayed instead of jumping to the league made him into the legend. So, I hate K. But, because we were blessed with our school and coaching while K built his powerhouse, it made Carolina/Duke into college basketball's best rivalry. So, I still love beating them. But, I remember the days before Valvano when Sloan had State as the rivalry. Why do you think Roy hates them so much?

As to your last sentence, assuming the ACC crumbles as expected, I could care less if D falls into a paragraph of college bball history. While our league still exists, I want D strong if nothing else besides the idea of iron sharpens iron.
 
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pooponduke said:
This is me 100%. Sometimes the stars and universe align resulting in something: this happened for K at Dook. Don't get me wrong, I have to give him his due and grudgingly acknowledge his abilities, but like all coaches, some luck is involved (Tom Brady is looking at you Mr. Belichick). Just the mere fact that he had those great teams that EVERYONE always stayed instead of jumping to the league made him into the legend. So, I hate K. But, because we were blessed with our school and coaching while K built his powerhouse, it made Carolina/Duke into college basketball's best rivalry. So, I still love beating them. But, I remember the days before Valvano when Sloan had State as the rivalry. Why do you think Roy hates them so much?

As to your last sentence, assuming the ACC crumbles as expected, I could care less if D falls into a paragraph of college bball history. While our league still exists, I want D strong if nothing else besides the idea of iron sharpens iron.
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Good point. That state rivalry was actually heated.

If K is Laettner, then Sheyer is Battier. The latter is annoying in his own ways, plenty of reasons to hate him, but he actually isn't pure evil.
 
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blazers said:
Good point. That state rivalry was actually heated.

If K is Laettner, then Sheyer is Battier. The latter is annoying in his own ways, plenty of reasons to hate him, but he actually isn't pure evil.
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Scheyer was the butt of a joke that he probably doesn't even get... it's almost like picking on the handicapped. He must be a decent coach, at least, to get the guys to play together the way they do.

I wonder if Jeff Capel could do the same, or better, with the same players and the dookie force behind him. K must have seen something unique in Jon Scheyer to allow him to take the wheel.
 
blazers said:
Good point. That state rivalry was actually heated.

If K is Laettner, then Sheyer is Battier. The latter is annoying in his own ways, plenty of reasons to hate him, but he actually isn't pure evil.
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I'm just super happy that they didn't have a follow-up coach who would be the equivalent of Bilas. That would really make it a challenge.
 
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pooponduke said:
This is me 100%. Sometimes the stars and universe align resulting in something: this happened for K at Dook. Don't get me wrong, I have to give him his due and grudgingly acknowledge his abilities, but like all coaches, some luck is involved (Tom Brady is looking at you Mr. Belichick). Just the mere fact that he had those great teams that EVERYONE always stayed instead of jumping to the league made him into the legend. So, I hate K. But, because we were blessed with our school and coaching while K built his powerhouse, it made Carolina/Duke into college basketball's best rivalry. So, I still love beating them. But, I remember the days before Valvano when Sloan had State as the rivalry. Why do you think Roy hates them so much?

As to your last sentence, assuming the ACC crumbles as expected, I could care less if D falls into a paragraph of college bball history. While our league still exists, I want D strong if nothing else besides the idea of iron sharpens iron.
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to press my point home with your help, I had little use for Sloan but I actually like Valvano, at least until we started seeing his face every time we turned around after they won the championship. Either way though, I hated them and hated losing to them just as much as with dook, independent of who the coach was.

If dook and we went our separate conference ways, I would hope that we would still play them every year. If it ended up being only once, that might make an even more intense contest. I don't want this rivalry to fade away because many of the reasons for the hostility will still be only ten miles away..
 
bluetoe said:
to press my point home with your help, I had little use for Sloan but I actually like Valvano, at least until we started seeing his face every time we turned around after they won the championship. Either way though, I hated them and hated losing to them just as much as with dook, independent of who the coach was.

If dook and we went our separate conference ways, I would hope that we would still play them every year. If it ended up being only once, that might make an even more intense contest. I don't want this rivalry to fade away because many of the reasons for the hostility will still be only ten miles away..
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Well, the good news is that we are really just talking bball. And, they play a ton of games including a ton of out of conference games. Assuming both programs stay good, they'd be crazy to not continue the rivalry. FB, on the other hand, could be a victim of required conference scheduling.

People just forget how good State used to be in bball. And, to divert just a bit, I have to call it the way I see it and the best college bball player I ever got to see in person was David Thompson (and yes, I saw MJ, he just got to be the best ever as a pro). Len Bias was close. All those years were great times to be college bball fans.
 
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pooponduke said:
Well, the good news is that we are really just talking bball. And, they play a ton of games including a ton of out of conference games. Assuming both programs stay good, they'd be crazy to not continue the rivalry. FB, on the other hand, could be a victim of required conference scheduling.

People just forget how good State used to be in bball. And, to divert just a bit, I have to call it the way I see it and the best college bball player I ever got to see in person was David Thompson (and yes, I saw MJ, he just got to be the best ever as a pro). Len Bias was close. All those years were great times to be college bball fans.
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you are exactly right about MJ, although he was pretty damn good in school too. But I think Len Bias might have been his equal or even...never mind. . David Thompson was one of a kind, but an example of exactly what you pointed out in your previous post...how one fares depends a lot on the bounce of the ball, and DT's ball didn't bounce for him the way MJ's did.

If you go back that far, do you agree with me that, excluding any loyalty bias, that the ACC championship game (NC State/Maryland) in '74 was maybe the best ACC game ever? It was nothing short of phenomenal.

One reason we never cared much for Sloan was that Thompson was supposed to sign on with us but Sloan waved something in front of him to change his mind. Or so the story went.
 
bluetoe said:
you are exactly right about MJ, although he was pretty damn good in school too. But I think Len Bias might have been his equal or even...never mind. . David Thompson was one of a kind, but an example of exactly what you pointed out in your previous post...how one fares depends a lot on the bounce of the ball, and DT's ball didn't bounce for him the way MJ's did.

If you go back that far, do you agree with me that, excluding any loyalty bias, that the ACC championship game (NC State/Maryland) in '74 was maybe the best ACC game ever? It was nothing short of phenomenal.

One reason we never cared much for Sloan was that Thompson was supposed to sign on with us but Sloan waved something in front of him to change his mind. Or so the story went.
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To your question, YES that was the best ever. That MD squad was probably the second or third best in the country that year. It arguably was the catalyst for expanding the NCAA tourney. When I was a young fan, going to the ACC tourney was one of my sports bucket list items. People now really have no idea how important it was at the time.

On the recruiting stuff, there was a ton of that even then, If I recall, didn't David's mom get her driveway paved or something like that?
 
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pooponduke said:
To your question, YES that was the best ever. That MD squad was probably the second or third best in the country that year. It arguably was the catalyst for expanding the NCAA tourney. When I was a young fan, going to the ACC tourney was one of my sports bucket list items. People now really have no idea how important it was at the time.

On the recruiting stuff, there was a ton of that even then, If I recall, didn't David's mom get her driveway paved or something like that?
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that's funny, I was trying to remember the driveway paving episode and I couldn't quite get my tired old noggin to cooperate, so I didn't mention it. But yeah, there was something involving Sloan and an illicit paving job.

pooponduke said:
People now really have no idea how important it was at the time.
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people now think we're just hanging our hats on our older time frames, but the truth is that ACC basketball pre multiple NCAA invites was a step above anything done since in terms of fierce competition and rivalry. I would like to see some of the talent we have collected in the meantime put in that balls out, do-or-die situation.
 
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Did anyone else think we were done when clemson hit their first 7 or 8 shots and we
Missed the same? I just had a feeling. I don’t know what the w-l record is for teams doing that but I bet it’s pretty good.
 
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gteeitup said:
ingram is climbing the charts for me as an all-timer…and you can tell he gets under the opponent’s skin, which we have never had enough of…got a ron artest vibe about him, just an all-around good player.
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Rasheed Wallace light?
 
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not concerned yet because syracuse shot it at an unreal clip…perimeter defense isn’t as good as it was a month ago, but because i’ve seen it, i think it will round into shape again.

at uva is big on 2/24 and if they can get that one, another run is going to happen.
 
gteeitup said:
not concerned yet because syracuse shot it at an unreal clip…perimeter defense isn’t as good as it was a month ago, but because i’ve seen it, i think it will round into shape again.

at uva is big on 2/24 and if they can get that one, another run is going to happen.
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Rational take and I agree. Or at least I'll say I'm not too concerned. Syracuse was a bad match up from the standpoint that they have 2 big scoring guards that just took advantage of RJ's size. Cadeau, while much improved defensively, is still small and easily taken advantage of too. He also needs to learn to not get his hips up under guys when they are taking the jumper. He does a nice job of getting to their space to bother them but since he's too short to really contest, he gets too close and doesn't allow them a chance to come down.

I have lowered my expectations though. We are not championship level. Just don't shoot it well enough, bench depth is shaky and we've lost our defensive mojo. Like you, I think we can get some defensive mojo back with Hubert playing some different defenses. But I've held out hope on Cormac turning the corner and he just hasn't. He's shooting the 3 at 29%. We needed 39% out of him. That's not happening at this point. With the right match ups and some luck, we could make the Final Four. Maybe. But that doesn't look likely.

With that said, if we win the ACC reg season and/or ACCT, that has to be considered a good season and we have to like the trajectory of the program. Next year could be another good year if Ingram stays and we pick up a good big in the portal. We should definitely be conference contenders again.
 
we're hitting the 2nd time around the ACC schedule and teams know our weak spots (and vice versa). we're getting next to no post production and the incredible January defense has become porous. hopefully we get that momentum back soon!
 
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I read a report that unc is exploring building a new bball arena. Hard to believe smith center is already 40 yrs old. It was state of the art back in the day. Now….not so much. And we know we gotta keep that shyt cutting edge.
 
heelmanwilm said:
I read a report that unc is exploring building a new bball arena. Hard to believe smith center is already 40 yrs old. It was state of the art back in the day. Now….not so much. And we know we gotta keep that shyt cutting edge.
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The Hubert Dome?
 
The type of build it would take for UNC to replace the Dean Dome would be so expensive it would need to be named after a corporate sponsor instead of a coach.

Or maybe an immensely wealthy private donor. Who also happens to represent a massive corporate brand...
 
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