Using abortion as birth control is an abuse of the procedure.
OOTB's Political Thread . ..
- Thread starter BillyL
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Thats tough but at the end of day your wife and you made the right choice, and you are better people for it.
I understand the law was for that but the problem I have with it is it is being used for birth control when of course accidents happen but getting pregnant very easily prevented and cheap. Condoms are 4 quarters in the bathroom at most gas stations. In my younger days when something come up and I didn't have one I got my horny ass up and went and got one, because I respected the consequences.
I have said before to people before and I heard someone else say this so I stole it but. Im willing to concede that in situations like yours and in the cases of incest and special case they could be used if people can agree all the rest are just wrong.
I know parents that have kids with downs that were offered the chance to abort and they didn't and those are the happiest most loving and loved kids you have ever seen.
I wish your wife, child and you the best I just have the views that any life is valuable and should be protected.
you have my respect and your wife is a hero. We had our third born with the cord around his neck cutting oxygen to the brain and was put on life support. So We were faced with a similar scenario. He ended up dying after a couple days though. Part of me thinks mercifully. His name was Eli and would’ve been 18 this past Valentine’s Day.
you are clueless beyond belief. First of all, I have put no words in your mouth, now or before.
You are only liberal relatively speaking, because the term carries no absolute meaning. Never has and never will.
Liberal used to be the term for one who strongly opposed government involvement in anything not essential to the country as a whole. It used to be the term for those who favored individual freedom and choice above all else The current 'liberal' however is the extreme end of the democratic party, and as such they are in favor of large government involvement and in favor of screwing some individuals for the benefit of other individuals. They believe the wealthy owe the less wealthy simply on the basis of that wealth. They trample the individuals rights in favor of particular groups. They reduce choice in order to bestow ability. Conservatives and Libertarians are opposed in principle to the beliefs of the current definition of 'liberal'. They are NOT all liberal according to the current usage no matter what you imagine in your stulted thinking...and you don't get to make it otherwise just by proclaiming some definition that has no basis in reality.
It's hard to approach the topic / story of what is going down, what is getting revealed in the Flynn unmasking, framing, entrapment without people thinking "oh yeah - you're just a Trumpanzee MAGAt, covering for corrupt Orange Man and his cronies".
....which for me is pure BS. Change the names Trump and Flynn, to Obama and Susan Rice.....etc. Everyone who has any respect for the US Constitution, and who sees the Constitution as what makes US greater than the totalitarian countries and banana republics - should be deeply concerned with what is being revealed, and what went on during transition of administrations, and the last three years regarding the Russia collusion hoax.
No citizen should be subjected to this outrageous illegal spying and using the spying dirt to frame opponents and ruin their lives. I don't think it is an overstatement to say this is the largest, most obscene gravely dangerous political constitutional scandal in US history.... in my 52 year life, anway. Because it hits right at the heart of constitution and bill of rights - destroying / ignoring rights protected there.
It makes Iran-contra, Watergate, Clinton impeachment look like child's play, IMO.
you have to be a lib. Only a lib would say a 'side' supports supplying weapons to mass murderers. Allowing the freedom to purchase a firearm for an individual who might unpredictably use that firearm illegally is a far cry from supplying them to a mass murderer, at least in the mind of the reasonable.
Okay...
uh oh... wait...
I'm glad the term "liberal" carries no absolute meaning.
You could attempt to cease the ad hominem attacks and simply have a conversation.
What you’re describing is simply libertarianism which is the misguided belief that any infringement on a persons right to do something is somehow immoral.
Liberalism incorporates civil government, democracy, republicanism, rights for all people, and the very principles our country was founded. I am not talking about the distorted current definition of liberal which has somehow become akin to a four letter word to someone such as yourself.
If you really think conservatives really defend rights and freedoms any more than progressives do you’re not looking at the whole picture. It depends on the issue and who’s in power. The modern surveillance state was created by conservatives. The limitation of marriage to only men and women dictated by the federal government was a conservative ideal pushed by both democrats and republicans at the time.
As for wealth, I don’t believe that wealth is owed to those who have less by that metric alone. I do believe however if you concentrate too much wealth in the hands of too few, you create an imbalance in society that can lead to massive social repercussions, ie the French Revolution. Not saying we are near that point at all, but I do believe that we are heading towards a new gilded age.
In the words of FDR- "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little."
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Ironically the pro lifers are generally the same people who oppose providing birth control to low income women. Best way to prevent abortions is to make birth control universally available. There aren't any women that would prefer an abortion over taking a pill every day.
And also the same people who try to fight welfare and food security programs that provide for children born to low income women.
And the same people who prefer preaching at their kids about the "sin" of premarital sex instead of mandatory sex education.
We really are living in idiocracy
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-biden-no-idea-whats-happening-aoc-wind-kill-birds-2020-5
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-biden-no-idea-whats-happening-aoc-wind-kill-birds-2020-5
and I would be right, you incredibly limited toadstool. Up til now I have not, and I do so now in response to his previous insistent denial; while once again he exhibits the characteristics. Of course you can always show me where I called him a lib before. I'll be waiting.
Okay...
uh oh... wait...
I'm glad the term "liberal" carries no absolute meaning.
dude, you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. All you can do is make inane comments. You don't have the wherewithal to explain what you're getting at because you really don't know. But in case you want to balls up and try, I'll be waiting.
hilarious that when you for once include some substance with your message, you admonish me for an ad hominem attack, as if you have previously made any attempt at actual discussion. As ALWAYS, I include substance in my posts and any ad hominem is just an extra added attraction. With you it's the norm.
But anyway, you are seemingly not even aware that you made this about names. You protest the connotation that the current use of the term liberal conveys, without understanding that it's the reality, not the name, that gives the term the connotation. You can't dress that up by referring to a different, more noble use of the term, as if the similarity will make it all blend into something acceptable. And yes, the former use of the term liberal that I mentioned does describe libertarianism, but it does so because libertarianism is much more akin to the ideals we were founded on than the socialistic view of present day liberals. Now, because it doesn't fit your view of the current state of liberalism, you trash it while trying to transpose those higher ideals on something clearly at the other end of the spectrum. You are really just lost in space here.
inanity...check
can't actually say what he was talking about because he doesn't know...check
no balls...check
What if I teach my kids about the sin of premarital sex, and sex education at the same time? I don't oppose birth control to low income people. Its crazy not to. People who struggle financially have sex as well. Condoms aren't that expensive, but offering the pill, or some other type would be fine for me.
As for using abortion as birth control, here is an example. The movie Coach Carter, made by MTV, had a scene in which a young high school girl got pregnant, and used abortion to get rid of the baby so she could continue with her life. Fiction, yes. But it definitely reflects life now.
Medical reasons is highly debatable. But anyone who scoffs at the notion of it being an alternate to birth control is blind. Why do you think most states won't allow notifying of parents if they are over 16?
My wife's doctor told us that my youngest would be a waterhead baby. We pushed thru that and she is perfectly normal. There are misdiagnosed things with unborn babies all the time. We have come a long way in prenatal testing since then.
Hanging the whole abortion debate on rape or incest cases is delusional. I can be accepting in proven medical cases, rape and incest. That should be the woman's choice. But oops, I'm knocked up again isn't a reason. I am to lazy to dig up the statistics, but all the people I know who have had one, it was an oops situation. I'm sure the majority of cases are to get rid of the baby, because of similar situations like the movie I gave as an example
My point was that the abstinence only approach doesn't work. The states with the highest levels of religiosity also have the highest levels of teenage pregnancies. A lot of that has to do with the fact that a lot of kids don't learn about sex in those areas.
Are we really going to use a movie as an example?...
It's not a simple ethical question. What constitutes life? If you want to argue that it's as simple as biological existence, then taking someone off life support is also murder. They're technically alive in the same way a 10 week old fetus is. IMO the defining feature of human life is consciousness. First trimester fetuses aren't conscious. That isn't a human being, yet.
I believe that in the first trimester, a woman's right to bodily autonomy trumps the rights of a developing fetus. And if there is a medical emergency, then I think the time period goes out the window. You can't force women to jeopardize their lives by delivering nonviable pregnancies.
If you want to try to convince women not to get abortions, and steer them towards adoption or other alternatives then by all means, knock yourself out. As long as that doesn't involve sitting outside abortion clinics and harassing women or doctors. But if you try to pass laws that prohibit abortions you will not prevent them. You'll just drive women to riskier "back alley" alternatives that jeopardize their health.
Yes, I did use an example in a movie. I was told that abortion as a for of birth control is ridiculous and seemingly rare. That movie makes it OK. I'm not going to argue it the woman's life is threatened. But I don't agree with getting rid of the baby, just because you make a mistake. As for the fetus development, that's another argument. Using the same see xample of killing a pregnant woman, you get 2 charges. I guess we can mysteriously call it a baby when it suites the situation. Nothing is going to change in saying that abortion is taking a life. The life of a unborn child. Blaming religious.people for raising uneducated kids in regards to sex is lame. The reason people shy away from sex ed is some teachers tell the kids its OK to explore those feelings. If they steer kids down that path, then they trump any moral teachings the parents may be teaching themselves. I had sex with a hundred women before I was married. I now wish I had waited. Nothing wrong with.me reaching my child to wait. And I sure won't entertain using an abortion to deal with an unwanted child. I have a feeling the percentage of abortions are low when it fits your debate points as to reasons why to allow abortions. Its surely higher when using it for simply getting rid of the unwanted mistake.
A movie makes it okay? Lol
Killing a pregnant woman is two charges because you killed a woman and the fetus without her consent. Do you really not see how that’s different than a woman electing to terminate a pregnancy? A woman having the right to choose whether she has to carry a pregnancy to term is completely different than some random thug getting to make that decision for her. That’s a completely ridiculous comparison to make.
Doesn’t matter what you will or won’t entertain. It isn’t your decision to make. If a woman has an unwanted pregnancy and doesn’t want to carry it to term, then that’s up to her. You’re not the one having your body wrecked and having to giving birth.
Religious people should stop raising sexually ignorant kids if they don’t want to be blamed for it. I’m not inclined to pull punches when it comes to religion. Organizing a society around Stone Age fairy tales is a problem.
Grayhead, you cannot deny the impact the conservative religious folk in this country have over their communities and by extension the youth in those areas. By preaching uncompromising abstinence or even that there’s only one kind of relationship that matters, you’re only making the subject more taboo and thus more likely for kids to experiment dangerously.
No rational person would advocate for 14-18 year olds to do as they please. But if kids those ages had a better understanding of how unprotected sex and other forms of intimacy impact their lives if done irresponsibly, unwanted pregnancies would certainly go down. That requires broader sex education, not shying away from it.
As for abortion that’s a whole other debate, but as @uncboy10 alluded to, banning the practice outright would only cause more problems. And as a side note if men could get pregnant, abortion would be legal without question lol.
I guess movies and music has no influence on society or younger folks at all. My bad. You most likely wasn't born when that movie came out, and wasn't around with how debatable this issue really was. Unfortunately today, its just a simple political stance.
And I do not raise sexually ignorant kids. I teach my kids about protected sex. I teach them about abstinence. I teach them about falling in love with the right person. I also taught my girls about what most young men want and what they will do to get it. I'm not going to pull punches with devote atheist either. You are one of the examples on this board of an elitist attitude. You know better than anyone about any conversation that rises. You make the rules you choose to follow. I choose to follow a proven guideline that allows me to be concerned about the preservation of life.
As for your dismissal of killing a pregnant woman, it is very relevant. Its either alive or not. I have no issues with punishing someone for committing that.
I understand that there are medical reasons behind some abortions. Even tuberal pregnancy has to be terminated. That is common logic. You say a woman should have a right to choose. My take is, should she have a right to choose if she simply doesn't want the baby. Trying to correct a mistake by simply killing it is irresponsible.
Also with that program that I contribute to, their statistics show that 9 out of 10 women change their minds once they actually see it is a life growing inside. The even offer council for those who choose to go thru with it. Several clinics in NYC have lost funding because of the success of this program. They even had the nurses guiding the women to them just to get checked. I imagine these women feel pressure from getting pregnant. Its a relief to some when they find that its not the end of the world if they have a child. Even McCorvey, the woman known as Jane Roe changed her stance on this matter. Shame on anyone who pressures a woman to go thru that.
I'm definitely in favor of providing free birth control to the dregs of society. I'd actually go as far as to make it mandatory. And permanent.
We preach about choices and consequences. Right and wrong. I can say the same about non religious folks and their impact. I am all for educating people. But I am also for accountability in life. This goes well beyond my religious beliefs. I don't believe in homosexuality. If someone chooses to be, that's their choice. If they are in my environment, then I will share my.stance. same as with abortion. I am for the freedom of choice in.most things. But I am for preservation of life. I would rather talk it thru than fight. War, death, should be a last ditch thing. I would never hurt anyone for choosing to do these things. But I won't sit on.my hands either. I council people all the time. All I can do is show them a proven way. They make choices for themselves. My oldest daughter got pregnant shortly after she became secually active. She changed the course of her life because of that. My preference would be that she waited. We encouraged her to wait. My grandson was born partially autistic. Abortion was never on the table. Her and the father assumed responsibility and are raising their kids, even though the easy way out would have been to terminate the pregnancy.
A) homosexuality is not a choice and that’s long been proven so I wouldn’t use that an example to back your argument.
B) if you believe in choice you would allow for people to make their own when it comes to this delicate matter. It is never an easy thing to go through for any woman and you and I will never have to share that burden. Whatever choice is made is theirs and none of our business.
There are consequences for actions and that should be emphasized. Like I said, teens shouldn’t be able to do what they want. However, you also cannot scare or frighten kids believing that works either. There are a lot of good religious folk out there, but too many preachers in the Deep South and Midwest exacerbate the problems they claim to have answers to. Not the other way around. This is one of them.
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I quit reading after you called homosexuality a choice. You’re entitled to your beliefs of course but once I hear that the rest becomes white noise. Do you have any homosexual friends or family? Have you ever been tempted to have sex with a man or to even mimic the act? Sin comes from temptation right? I’ve been tempted to steal, lie, kill, covet, etc. I’ve never been tempted to have a penis shoved up my ass or to choose to roll around with a mans body as opposed to a females. There’s no way in hell anyone would “choose” that. It has to be wired in you. Common sense.
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I never thought I would say this, but can we start talking about Trump again?
trump is gay and survived a partial birth abortion where they sucked out his brain
I'm glad to asked.
I think Tucker Carlson is my favorite superimposed-face in this abortion.
he cannot talk at all. He is learning to use an eye gazing device, but it’s 50/50 at best. He definitely shows emotions. Happiness, sadness, pain, etc. It’s extra tough as he’s more like Stephen Hawkings than a kids with Downs. It’s tough.
Abortion is a deeply personal choice. I’ve never knowingly been a part of one but most likely would have supported one in my younger days. We got lucky that he is getting by, but we’ve met plenty of parents along the way that have/had it way worse. We recently had a little girl and did the 16 week tests to see if she had any serious ailments. We would have aborted for something serious. 2 severely disabled children is just too much.
First of all, that movie came out in 2005. I'm pretty sure everyone here was born when it came out. But you're right, I don't remember there being some huge debate about it because I don't hang in the right wing evangelical circles where every depiction of an abortion is an earth shattering event. Only a complete simpleton would think something is okay just because they saw it in a movie.
Good grief man what a ridiculous argument. I didn't dismiss the murder of pregnant women. I pointed out the clear difference between murdering a pregnant woman in a case where she wants to carry the pregnancy to term, vs an elective abortion. Do you think that taking someone who is in a vegetative state off of life support is murder too? They're either alive or they aren't, right?... I don't think you've ever bothered to grapple with the complex ethical dilemma of abortion and what constitutes life, beyond telling yourself that abortion is baby murder.
You call me an elitist but go on to make condescending remarks about 'not believing in homosexuality' while in the same poast talking about how you believe in freedom of choice. You don't believe in freedom of choice. You believe that people should live their lives according to the morality taught in an old book that also tells people that if you rape a woman you should marry her. There is nothing proven about the morality of the bible aside from the fact that it is completely backwards. You know what's really elitist? Thinking you know the mind of god and that people who don't believe in the same fairy tale as you will go to hell to be tortured for eternity. That's the single most elitist concept ever created by human beings.
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