Meeks has nothing to gain from coming back. He is what he is. Hicks, on the other hand, has everything to gain by coming back. By being "The Man" next season, he could have a huge jump like Brice did this year
Udoka closing in on decision?
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Meeks has nothing to gain from coming back. He is what he is. Hicks, on the other hand, has everything to gain by coming back. By being "The Man" next season, he could have a huge jump like Brice did this year
Except for maybe proving he can last an entire college season without injury or some other physical limitation.
Meeks and hicks will get drafted first round if they choose to come out this year..Johnson is playing himself into a lottery pick..Paige is headed to mid second round...someone will take a chance on Joel James and sign him to a rookie free agent contract..that size and his youth to playing serious basketball (5-6 years?)...means he has room to grow and potential ..will be too hard to pass up!!
Brice and Hicks are the only first rounders. Meeks and Paige early to mid second round. But I think Hicks stays and gets a season being the man. James probably won't get drafter or play in the NBA. I can see him getting a shot on a D-league team, but without knowing his circumstances, I'd guess the best spot for him is to go build a nice career in Europe. I have no doubt James is on track to providing a much better life for his family whatever he does. Justin still has first round potential, but if he doesn't get out of his shooting slump, he'll need to come back.
To begin with, I never said Roy wasn't a good coach or a good developer of big men, but I'll take Self's record. To waste some time at work, let's start at 2005 (there's some question as what actually qualifies as a big man and I don't know if all the players stayed in UNC's system or had other issues that can contribute to a poor showing so you can correct). I eliminated players outside top 50 unless they were drafted
2005
UNC: Hansbrough (position: 4, national: 10) - drafted: 13
KU: None
2006:
UNC: Stepheson (11, 41) - undrafted, Wright (1, 3) - 8,
KU: Arthur (3, 16) - 27
2007
UNC: None
KU: Aldrich (6, 30) - 11
2008
UNC: Zeller (7, 33) - 17, Davis (4, 15) - 13
KU: Ma. Morris (10, 29) - 14, Morris (17, 59) - 13, Withey transfer (8, 36) - 39
2009
UNC: Henson (2, 5), 14th,
KU: Robinson (10, 31) - 5,
2010
UNC: None
KU: None
2011
UNC: McAdoo (3, 8) - undrafted
KU:
2012 - all players still active
2013
UNC: Hicks (6, 16), Meeks (4, 57)
KU: Embiid (3, 25) - drafted 3
Average UNC recruit: 16; average draft position: 13; Undrafted: 2
Average KU Recruit: 32, average draft: 16, Undrafted: 0
So in sum, UNC generally gets recruits ranked twice as high as KUs, they're only drafted 3 spots higher and have more undrafted players. This is arguing over who has better gold, but since that's the nature of this type of argument I'll take Self here. He gets worse recruits and yet they go about the same position in the draft, especially if you consider 2 players for Roy went undrafted.
Drafted and still playing are two different things. All but one heel gets pt almost every game.
One of your undrafted players transferred to USC... Not really fair to put him being undrafted on Roy.
That's good work by Hills, nice to see some cold hard facts/stats to illustrate a point. I'd say they're pretty close - and its a six in one, half dozen in the other, type argument. The one thing I'll note is Roy's average draft position of 13 is inside the lottery, whereas Self's 16 is outside of the lottery. Very nitpicky, but the goal of the incoming great players is to be a "lottery pick". However as Hills demonstrated, that can definitely be achieved either at UNC or at KU. I'm definitely interested to see how this plays out.
Yeah, I wasn't sure what happened to all the UNC players so he definitely shouldn't be counted against Roy.
As for the other comment between drafted and still playing, I meant still playing in college. The reason I didn't put that for the following year is because Embiid was drafted.
Where's Cliff Alexander on your list? @hills5
But really, it doesn't matter. The entire post is flawed because it doesn't take into account the strength of each draft nor the needs of the teams and where each team is slotted. That little exercise is bunk in its entirety.
No offense though. I appreciate the effort and the argument that was started regarding who develops big men better is silly, IMO. Both are good spots for any frontcourt player to land.
But really, it doesn't matter. The entire post is flawed because it doesn't take into account the strength of each draft nor the needs of the teams and where each team is slotted. That little exercise is bunk in its entirety.
No offense though. I appreciate the effort and the argument that was started regarding who develops big men better is silly, IMO. Both are good spots for any frontcourt player to land.
I didn't include Alexander because he was suspended and forced into the draft so he never had a chance to be 'developed'.
It's definitely a tough comparison as you can always say "X had a strong draft" or "Y was undersized therefore not his fault he wasn't drafted" but short of taking the time to do a full analysis showing how each player developed year-by-year vs. the average player at an average school it's the best comparison we can do. As mentioned, we're arguing whose gold is better.
Embiid played 28 games at KU and has yet to play for Philly. How exactly could any degree of development be determined? Well other than just natural ability. The Morris twins have basically been cancers in the locker room in the NBA.
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We'll go with the annoying ESPN football argument here: the eyeball test. If you watched Embiid when he showed up and compared it with his play at the end it was world's apart. Some of that is natural ability, some of that is comfort, but a lot of that is coaching.
As for the Morris twins, given their rankings and how they played as freshmen, there's was little indication they would even make the pros, let alone be solid contributors. They made the pros and are doing decently, in part, because they were coached up.
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Have to disagree. It was obvious from the git go that the twins were NBA caliber talent. I happen to think Self is one of the top five coaches in the country, as far as recruiting and game management. I don' t know that I could pick the best Coach where he and Roy are concerned. Suffice it to say they're both elite.
Group him in if you like. Since he plays more small forward I didn't really consider him a "big man."
Roy's a great coach and deserving of the HOF. Self will be there soon as well and as for who is the better big man developer, I'll take Self.
I wouldn't think they were NBA caliber from the git go. Markieff averaged 4 points and Marcus 7 points their freshman years (remember that KU lost their starting five the year before so there were plenty of minutes to go around). The only averaged 12 (good), and 6 (meh) their sophomore years. It wasn't until their Junior years that they took off and went to 17 and 13 (other stats up as well).
Self and Roy have totally different styles of coaching but both are likely in the top 5 coaches in the country. As for who those top 5 are, I think they are probably K, Calipari, Roy, Izzo and Self (in no particular order).
Interestingly, I did a quick search for top college coaches and Athlon Sports was the first hit. Self was 6 and Roy was 10. They had Pitino and Bo Ryan higher than Self. Tony Bennet and Greg Marshall (WSU) were above Roy.
gunslinger nailed this and that's about all that needs to be said. Of course a KU fan will pick Self and a Tar Heel will pick Roy. Imagine that.
To bad this can't be discussed on the KU free board.
you put a lot of work in to retort something I did not say? you base your retort on incoming hype and draft position.Did you not understand my point was toss both of those things out and just look at the player improvement while in the program, that is actually what development is. Taking a kid no matter what his incoming hype is and developing him in to a much better player.
Example, JMM and Anthony Davis were both considered can't miss, co MVPs of their Micky D game, did you see similar level players there? The hype indicated they were, what we saw on the court proved they were vastly different. Embid may not have been the most hyped player in his class but in a thread about development you offer a one & done player as proof of development? But Embid came in with the ability to be a dominate college player, I didn't see him transform magically, I saw a kid that already had game and big time measurables.
Williams was a power forward and May was a center, but we can agree to disagree. Rankings mean nothing since despite having one of the best winning percentages in history Roy = 80%; Self = 75%); two national championships; multiple ACC and Big 12 championships; multiple final fours; winning at two major programs-Roy is always overlooked by the so called gurus.
Self and Roy are both great I agree, but Roy is clearly greater than: Pitino (close but edge to Roy), Bo Ryan(please), Tony Bennett (has won what?), Marshall (amazing he is included), and Izzo (love him, but Roy owns him!), and IMO Self.
Roy at 10 is laughable and destroys the credibility of the source! I will concede that the rat king is more accomplished and I see why some view Calshady as better (i disagree because coach means more than wins/losses), but Roy lower than 3 is ludicrous! Self lower than 5 is also silly to me. I say Roy and you say Bill; I'm getting off this carousel.
BTT: Wizard of Az please come join the Family! (we'll develop you better!)
Self and Roy are both great I agree, but Roy is clearly greater than: Pitino (close but edge to Roy), Bo Ryan(please), Tony Bennett (has won what?), Marshall (amazing he is included), and Izzo (love him, but Roy owns him!), and IMO Self.
Roy at 10 is laughable and destroys the credibility of the source! I will concede that the rat king is more accomplished and I see why some view Calshady as better (i disagree because coach means more than wins/losses), but Roy lower than 3 is ludicrous! Self lower than 5 is also silly to me. I say Roy and you say Bill; I'm getting off this carousel.
BTT: Wizard of Az please come join the Family! (we'll develop you better!)
Udoka is working on it . .
). Its a tough one for UA, there are things about Kansas/Self that he likes and things about Roy/UNC he really likes. This youngster has probably changed his mind a hundred times over since last week. Clint Jackson has an interesting article regarding AU over on the Premi board.
Udoka is working on it . .
Its a tough one for UA, there are things about Kansas/Self that he likes and things about Roy/UNC he really likes. This youngster has probably changed his mind a hundred times over since last week. Clint Jackson has an interesting article regarding AU over on the Premi board.
Would flourish at UNC from day one...
Udoka is working on it . .
Its a tough one for UA, there are things about Kansas/Self that he likes and things about Roy/UNC he really likes. This youngster has probably changed his mind a hundred times over since last week. Clint Jackson has an interesting article regarding AU over on the Premi board.
Yeah, so the smart move is for him to wait the season out and see who does what and who will stay or leave. Exactly what it appears he will do, I think Meeks decision is a big factor with this kid.
Makes me love the kids even more who want to be Tar Heels no matter who comes-goes. Like Hicks, no hesitation whatsoever, he was going to be a Tar Heel. Love that!
or Rech Black for that matter Mikey!
I agree but if you take Meeks out of the equasion then the importance of this kid is amplified big time. And meeks not being here for next season would be the less risky bet right now even if it does not make a lick of sense to me.
Meeks, much like JMM and JP before him, leaving early and not coming back as seniors and at least trying to become better players just blows my mind.
Same problem Brice is running into now. Look how much more effective he was in those games Kennedy was out. Roy will never say that Brice benefits with Kennedy being out, but it's pretty obvious. Roy loves the 2 big system, but he's won with it and without it. In 05, May was the only big that roamed the paint. Our 4s were Jawad and Marvin, and they liked to play on the perimeter. But in 09, we usually had Psycho T with either Davis or Thompson. Every now and again, Roy would put DG at the 4 with Tyler. It works both ways, but Brice seems to benefit more with the small ball lineup.
This is somewhat true in my humble opinion. If we go small while playing against a true 7 foot Center and a true 6-10 Power Forward (both of whom can play) then I do NOT think Brice would flourish quite so well. Also, when Meeks is playing he gets some of the shots that Brice gets when Meeks is sitting. However, take a good look at Isaiah Hicks. He is playing very, very well no matter how many minutes he is getting at times. His upside has not gone unnoticed either. So, PT is not always the final barometer. Talent seems to always surface at UNC...
You mean like the Wake game?
Brice Johnson 27 points on 8-12 FG, 11-12 FT, 11 rebounds, 2 blocks, 3 steals
Then I would disagree with the fellas over at IC...
carter, the problem is not Brice and UA is not Meeks, UA flushes EVERYTHING he gets deep in the paint, Meeks rarely if ever flushes anything. If Meeks were flushing everything he got near the basket defenders would have to give Brice more room cause they would have to double over on the big fella but when you are not finiishing strong at the rim, when your primary defender is blocking a lot of your shots the double does not come as often, the off side defender is able to stay on Brice and keep Brice from the offensive glass..
I am also not expecting Tony to be brice, Tony is more of a throw back center, not as electric as Brice athletically but more of a Brad Daugherty type when he fills out some. I think he really needs to work on his face up game but back to the basket he can play early. UA is size, power, and a bit of a on court mean streak. He is the kind of player that if he gets you pinned inside the block/charge circle that will not hesitate to go right thru you. You can either get out of the way or end up on a poster so you better double him to keep him from getting position. He is not about finess in other words and meeks is pretty much all about finess.
You can not look at meeks and UA and assume they will be similar type of players. If you never saw meeks play and saw him for the first time would the first thought strike you that this is a under the rim player that looks to finess the ball in rather than flush it strong? Same question if you never watched Joel James and saw him for the first time. There is a strong athletic difference between meeks and UA but there is just as strong a difference in aggression they play with. UA plays much more physical, if he even notices contact he doesn't mind it, Meeks struggles to play thru contact, trys to avoid it like the plague, that is night & day.
Meeks has a strong set of hands, catches most everything throw in his direction, not many bigs can do that, Joel for example has really poor hands. UAs hands are OK but meeks are outstanding, as is his passing, especially off the defensive rebound. But Meeks is lacking athletically, UA is not. Other than the fact that they are both really big fellas I really do not see UA as playing similar to meeks so how can we say UA wil not be able to play with Tony based on how Meeks and Brice play together?
I don't think dunking or finessing is the issue. The issue is the spacing if you dunk or finesse you are still in the same space with 2 big men and the guys on IC didn't limit it to the offensive end. They pointed out how a lot of teams are playing 6'6" - 6'7" guys at power forward and the difficulties of a big guy covering them.
By the same token, that 6'6" guy cannot guard true BIGS. Bradley-Yudoka will kill em. IC guys get in their own way way to often.
Because he's not much of an offensive threat, JoEL is often used to set screens at the top of the key, thereby drawing his man out of the paint, thus creating more space inside for Brice. Kennedy spends more time in the paint which means more congestion in the painted area.
