OOTB Carolina Basketball Discussion Thread

[TarHeelNation11]

Roy is who he is, and he is stubborn as hell in his philosophy. In Dean’s day; hell, even 15 years ago, it made sense to more heavily contest the 2 pointers than the 3’s. But today... not so much. There are too many good shooters in the college game.

I just wish Roy would throw a few wrinkles in his defensive schemes. Dean had the same basic philosophy Roy has, but Dean would throw some wrinkles in there and adjust during the game.

I was too young to know or appreciate Dean's coaching career, but from everything I read and hear, Dean was the master of innovation. Entire rules of the game would change and he would adapt, innovate, and continue winning at a really high clip.

Roy needs to innovate.

 

[tarheel0910]

I was too young to know or appreciate Dean's coaching career, but from everything I read and hear, Dean was the master of innovation. Entire rules of the game would change and he would adapt, innovate, and continue winning at a really high clip.

Roy needs to innovate.

Well I missed the first half of his career, but I can attest to the fact that Dean was a great in game coach. Roy just isn't great at making adjustments in game. He's ok, but not great at that.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I get that the 3-pt defense is pretty bad but honestly 50% is just impossible to sustain

The Warriors led the league with 43.7% shooting on uncontested three's. That's with three shooters that are far, far better than anyone in the ACC.

Conclusion: Even if every single 3 against our defense is uncontested there's no way teams can keep shooting them at a 50% clip.

I think there must be different levels of "uncontested". There's the "I don't have a hand in my face right now, but I gotta get this shot off quick before I do", and then there's "Damn, I got time to scratch my junk, blow a kiss to my girl in the crowd, and solve the next few digits of pi before anyone's coming to guard me" - and I think we're closer to the latter.

Also, yes the Warriors (and all NBA teams) have better shooters than our opponents, but it's not the same shot we're talking about - the 3pt line in college being significantly closer somewhat nullifies that comparison.

I imagine that good ACC shooters can consistently hit pretty close to 50% of college range 3's alone in an open gym, and that's pretty much what we're giving them with the absence of defense on the perimeter.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I agree with this 100%. It's making games, and "The Game", less-interesting to me. Guys chucking long balls all night... not much fun.

I don't like it either and I say that as someone who's only been alive during the 3-point shot era (was born in '89).

It ain't going away though, unfortunately. Like @uncboy10 said last night, it's the game young kids grow up playing now. It's all jump shots.

I disagree. I like the direction the game is moving being more shooter oriented, as I think that was the way it was originally intended to be played. I thought what it was 15 years ago or so was boring. Just give it to the big guy (e.g. Shaq) and watch him just bulldoze his way to the rim and dunk the ball because he's bigger than everyone else. If I want to have a competition of who's taller and bigger than everyone else, I can just rank players by height/weight. If I want to have a competition of who is a more skilled basketball player, I like to watch shooters go against one another.

 

[TarHeelNation11]

I disagree. I like the direction the game is moving being more shooter oriented, as I think that was the way it was originally intended to be played. I thought what it was 15 years ago or so was boring. Just give it to the big guy (e.g. Shaq) and watch him just bulldoze his way to the rim and dunk the ball because he's bigger than everyone else. If I want to have a competition of who's taller and bigger than everyone else, I can just rank players by height/weight. If I want to have a competition of who is a more skilled basketball player, I like to watch shooters go against one another.

That's a valid point. I've always found that annoying about basketball that it's basically... if you're super tall, you're already well on your way to being good. Good shout.

 

[heelmanwilm]

Coaches Williams and smith have always defended on the theory that the three is harder to make than a two. Therefore it makes sense in their eyes to allow an open three versus an open today. Unfortunately these days the game has evolved to a point to where shooters can make threes as consistently as twos. We’re allowing teams to shoot .50 from three. Seems to me Its time to take away the three and let them drive and take our chances on giving em ten footers. But its too late this season for any change. We are what we are. An avg team that relies on the 3 and plays crappy defense. Uva held clemson to 31 pts. Let that sink in.

 

[coolwaterunc]

Coaches Williams and smith have always defended on the theory that the three is harder to make than a two. Therefore it makes sense in their eyes to allow an open three versus an open today. Unfortunately these days the game has evolved to a point to where shooters can make threes as consistently as twos. We’re allowing teams to shoot .50 from three. Seems to me Its time to take away the three and let them drive and take our chances on giving em ten footers. But its too late this season for any change. We are what we are. An avg team that relies on the 3 and plays crappy defense. Uva held clemson to 31 pts. Let that sink in.

I agree with this. I say let them drive. Kids now are taught to shoot, but I guarantee you if you take away their shot and make them have to drive into traffic, they're not going to know what the hell to do. Of course the good ones are still going to be able to make a play if you let them, but the ones who just hover around the line are either going to pass it to someone else or try to make something happen in full panic mode. Trying to force teams to take twos should be the priority over giving them the three.

 

[TarHeelMark]

In conference, we are allowing 40% made 3’s.

All I can say is dammit!

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

All I can say is dammit!

Well.... you could say "damnit" too.

 

[TarHeelMark]

Well.... you could say "damnit" too.

True, but I am attempting to abide by OOTB decision to say it correctly, which is “dammit”.

Hey gotta go... Looney Tunes is on.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

True, but I am attempting to abide by OOTB decision to say it correctly, which is “dammit”.

Hey gotta go... Looney Tunes is on.

Save me some Chick-Fil-A.

 

[gauchoheel]

gaucho, put the numbers away for a second and just use your eyes. We both know it's simply down to our bad defense. Sure, going 50% from behind the arc has some luck to it, but overall, if you put the numbers away and just watch our defense, you know as well as I know that it's down to our BAD defense.

What happens on a typical opponent's made 3? Their ball handler drives in the lane, 2-3 of our guys collapse to "help," the ball handler kicks it to a wide-open shooter who is already set. Shooter catches the ball, already squared up to the basket, no dribble required, pauses a half second to gather himself since he's wide the F open, and then pulls the trigger. Or... and this is another favorite of mine... our defender will run way, way under a screen, leaving the shooter wide the F open from behind the arc.

Yes, there's some luck associated, but our awful 3-point % allowed isn't down to bad luck, man. It's down to bad defense. It's not like teams are having to attempt NBA style 3s of dribble, dribble, crossover, step back, contested 3. Nope. If teams were doing that against us and shooting 50%, I'd call it bad luck. Nah, this is just bad defense. Near every 3-point shot opportunity we allow is a wide-open look. Yes, sometimes the opponent makes a prayer from way back as the shot clock expires, or makes a contested 3, but dang... if you let a team get hot by nailing wide-open looks, then they're gonna start making some of the tougher shots with that built-up confidence.

Let's be clear here, I think our three-point defense is horrible. I'm not trying to say it's all bad luck. If a good shooter makes an uncontested three at 40% that's 1.2 points per shot. Villanova is the only major college team at 1.2 points per shot this year (though VT is at 1.199), so we're basically turning the opposing team into the best offense in basketball. The rate at which we're giving up wide open threes is absolutely maddening and frustrating.

I was only pointing out that the actual percentage of open threes made is largely out of the defense's control, so what "good three point defense" really means is giving up less open threes at all. We are one of the worst teams at preventing open threes, therefore our three point defense is horrible.

However, even an open three point shooter shouldn't make 50% of his threes. This is the same defense we beat Arkansas, Michigan, and Tennessee with. We've just continued playing bad defensively, and had some bad luck thrown on top of it the last couple games.

Also, let's not act like us being lousy guarding the 3 is a new phenomena under Roy. We've always been bad at it. That's why Duke beats us 5 out of every 6 times we face them. Typically, a Duke team's game is all about the 3 ball, so we lose against them.

We've gotten away with it most years, though, because we've had dominant inside guys and we have a fast-paced transition game, so we force teams to play our style, and we just out-score them and bury them to an extent that no amount of 3s is going to help.

The problem now is basketball (NBA and college) has morphed into a brand new style of play. The days of the hulking, dominating center are over. It's all guards and wings and wings and guards, and it's all about the 3 ball. Now it's not just Duke who focuses on the 3. Lots of teams do it. And that is why we're losing a lot now.

Roy needs to either change his defensive philosophy or needs to lobby college basketball to move the 3-point line to NBA depth. Or else, we're in trouble.

Agreed.

I imagine that good ACC shooters can consistently hit pretty close to 50% of college range 3's alone in an open gym, and that's pretty much what we're giving them with the absence of defense on the perimeter.

The arc distance doesn't really matter because the NBA's shooters are so much better. College and NBA teams both shoot ~35% from three on average. Also, I think you're underestimating how good these guys are at shooting. From what I hear, good NBA shooters make 80-90% of their threes in an open gym. It's like a free throw at this point. Much harder to make it in games with fatigue, defenders, and 20k fans screaming.

 

[gauchoheel]

I also want to say I think this carries over to our offense. I really wish Luke would shoot more threes, it's easily been the best shot our team can take. He's shooting 48% (!!) from three, 1.44 points per shot, which would basically make us the best offense in basketball history if our team could shoot at that rate (would be like shooting 74% on twos). Meanwhile, Joel is shooting 42% on twos, for 0.84 points per shot. But guess which one we've seen more? 164 Joel twos, and only 71 Luke threes. We're giving up 2/3's of a point every time we make that tradeoff.

Obviously Luke would probably regress with more shots. I think it's still pretty clear that he and Cam (and Joel when he's not forcing contested looks) can make threes at a 40%+ rate, so since we don't have anyone close to a 60% two point shooter, those are our best shots. We should be looking to create open threes for those guys rather than forcing post-ups or Joel falling to the ground twos.

 

[TarHeelMark]

Save me some Chick-Fil-A.

That will be dinner, whilst I jam to some Led Zep / Beatles....*

*I’ll have a better idea by midnight.

 

[tarheel0910]

That will be dinner, whilst I jam to some Led Zep / Beatles....*

*I’ll have a better idea by midnight.

Is this before or after you watch The Godfather?

 

[strummingram]

I really hope that Roy doesn't become like a Captain Ahab type figure. Just being stubborn and refusing and driving it down into the depths of mediocrity or worse. I hope he knows when it's time to go. I'm not saying it is time to go I'm just saying that I hope he knows when it's time to go.

 

[TarHeelMark]

Bottom line is we just aren’t very talented. We have a few nice pieces but we lost 5/8’s of our best players. And now, two backup PG’s are gone as well.

Kennedy, Isaiah, and most importantly losing Justin is killing us. That dude was always on the move to get open, and was able to get his own shot. I like Cam but we were sadly mistaken if we thought he could step in and replace what JJ did for us last year.

That being said, I’m not stressing over it too much. I consider this year a blip on the radar. We have some talented guys coming next year, and Roy has traditionally had a down year after a natty, as it usually takes a few seasons to build back up to that FF level (05, 08/09, 12, 16/17).

 

[gauchoheel]

"2018 I'm more optimistic since we're in a good position for Jairus Hamilton and Zion Williamson."

That's from the opening post in this thread, dated Aug 4, 2016. My how things change, Hamilton would be our fourth best recruit if brought in now.

 

[coryfly]

I'm watching a replay of the UNC at Duke game that followed the Rivers game. It was a great game where we blew them out on their senior night. It is amazing the difference in help defense. Guys get blown by just as often as this year but the other players are doing just what Roy wants in terms of help. Not too far from their man when they don't need to be and only the appropriate person actually providing help. This is against a Duke team with shooters all over the court.

 

[gteeitup]

I'm watching a replay of the UNC at Duke game that followed the Rivers game. It was a great game where we blew them out on their senior night. It is amazing the difference in help defense. Guys get blown by just as often as this year but the other players are doing just what Roy wants in terms of help. Not too far from their man when they don't need to be and only the appropriate person actually providing help. This is against a Duke team with shooters all over the court.

watched the 94 replay last night...they extended out past the arc that night...man that team was athletic.

 

[coryfly]

watched the 94 replay last night...they extended out past the arc that night...man that team was athletic.

Haha, I watched some of that one as well.

 

[gunslingerdick]

I disagree. I like the direction the game is moving being more shooter oriented, as I think that was the way it was originally intended to be played. I thought what it was 15 years ago or so was boring. Just give it to the big guy (e.g. Shaq) and watch him just bulldoze his way to the rim and dunk the ball because he's bigger than everyone else. If I want to have a competition of who's taller and bigger than everyone else, I can just rank players by height/weight. If I want to have a competition of who is a more skilled basketball player, I like to watch shooters go against one another.

First of all, the game 15 years ago wasn’t “just get it to the big man and let him bulldoze his way to the basket.” You used Shaq as evidence of the game being that way when he was a professional player that had no comparison in college and frankly was the only player that played the way you are describing the game of 15 years ago.

Secondly, I disagree that today’s game was how the game was intended to be played. The game was originally built to reward movement away from the ball and taking “the best shot”. The best shot is one that is least contested and with a high probability of going in. Gunning 3s based on analytics that drive for quicker possessions and more total shots is not “the best shot”. I think it’s less strategic because you’re simply playing a numbers game. A coach is “ok” with his team taking bad 3 pointers because he’s banking on making a high enough percentage that when you factor in the extra point from a 3, you come out on top.

So if you are going to argue that the analytics way of more possessions and utilizing the 3 is the way to go, then I’d argue that the 3 point line needs to be moved back significantly. The 3 point shot was intended to reward team for taking a risk. That risk is no longer much of a risk. So let’s move the line back to where risk plays a part again. I’d be in favor of moving the line back a good 3 feet - even farther than where the NBA currently has it. The problem is that it can’t go any farther back in the corners without widening the court - which for me would be a consideration.

And did @TarHeelNation11 really just try to say that duke beats us 5 out of every 6 times? That’s retarded. I’m hoping he’s going to respond and say he was just exaggerating for effect. Because it’s really easy to check the numbers.

 

[coolwaterunc]

First of all, the game 15 years ago wasn’t “just get it to the big man and let him bulldoze his way to the basket.” You used Shaq as evidence of the game being that way when he was a professional player that had no comparison in college and frankly was the only player that played the way you are describing the game of 10 years ago.

Completely agree with this. Guys like Hakeem Olajuwan, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, etc. weren't bulldozing their way to the basket. They made post play into a work of art, and it was the most beautiful basketball to watch. Today's bigs are just like everyone else. Stand out there and chuck threes.

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

First of all, the game 15 years ago wasn’t “just get it to the big man and let him bulldoze his way to the basket.” You used Shaq as evidence of the game being that way when he was a professional player that had no comparison in college and frankly was the only player that played the way you are describing the game of 10 years ago.

Secondly, I disagree that today’s game was how the game was intended to be played. The game was originally built to reward movement away from the ball and taking “the best shot”. The best shot is one that is least contested and with a high probability of going in. Gunning 3s based on analytics that drive for quicker possessions and more total shots is not “the best shot”. I think it’s less strategic because you’re simply playing a numbers game. A coach is “ok” with his team taking bad 3 pointers because he’s banking on making a high enough percentage that when you factor in the extra point from a 3, you come out on top.

So if you are going to argue that the analytics way of more possessions and utilizing the 3 is the way to go, then I’d argue that the 3 point line needs to be moved back significantly. The 3 point shot was intended to reward team for taking a risk. That risk is no longer much of a risk. So let’s move the line back to where risk plays a part again. I’d be in favor of moving the line back a good 3 feet - even farther than where the NBA currently has it. The problem is that it can’t go any farther back in the corners without widening the court - which for me would be a consideration.

And did @TarHeelNation11 really just try to say that duke beats us 5 out of every 6 times? That’s retarded. I’m hoping he’s going to respond and say he was just exaggerating for effect. Because it’s really easy to check the numbers.

Fair enough - I recognize that not all bigs were bulldozers, but I like to see that aspect being phased out of the game. I agree that the game should be one of choosing the "best shot", but I like when that is an actual shot, not a dunk (players driving the lane and then dunking is fine, I'm more referring to a big oaf slowly backing his way down to right beneath the basket and just dunking it).

It's somewhat of a catch-22 because I would also like to see the 3 point line backed up so it was a "riskier" shot, if that would open up the mid-range game. However if that happened, I feel like the outcome would go back to just feeding the big guy and watching him back down his opponent for a dunk.

Basically, I feel like if your FT percentage is under some threshold for a season, say 55% or something, that you should be kicked out of the league (or suspended for a season, or whatever). I realize that'll never happen, but it would encourage better shooting. The DeAndre Jordan's, Andre Drummond's, and Shaq's of the world can't even hit half their free throws. They're not skilled basketball players - they're just guys that are bigger than everyone else.

 

[tarheel0910]

Basically, I feel like if your FT percentage is under some threshold for a season, say 55% or something, that you should be kicked out of the league (or suspended for a season, or whatever). I realize that'll never happen, but it would encourage better shooting. The DeAndre Jordan's, Andre Drummond's, and Shaq's of the world can't even hit half their free throws.

I'm hoping this is a rule just for the pros. We can't afford to have Luke suspended.

 

[gunslingerdick]

Basically, I feel like if your FT percentage is under some threshold for a season, say 55% or something, that you should be kicked out of the league (or suspended for a season, or whatever). I realize that'll never happen, but it would encourage better shooting. The DeAndre Jordan's, Andre Drummond's, and Shaq's of the world can't even hit half their free throws. They're not skilled basketball players - they're just guys that are bigger than everyone else.

Would that sentiment carry over to other sports? Is Tyreke Hill a buster who’s just faster than everybody else on the football field? I mean, how much skill is involved in just being fast?

 

[Hark_The_Sound_2010]

I'm hoping this is a rule just for the pros. We can't afford to have Luke suspended.

It would certainly add some excitement to end of season games. Heels down 10 with a minute to go in the Round of 32...Luke steps to the line..."Folks, Luke is currently sitting at 54.8%, he needs to make both of these to remain eligible for next season"

Would that sentiment carry over to other sports? Is Tyreke Hill a buster who’s just faster than everybody else on the football field? I mean, how much skill is involved in just being fast?

Nah it wouldn't. Mainly because it doesn't help my argument, but also because being fast doesn't fundamentally change the game. He still needs to go 100 yards to the end zone, he can just do it quicker than other players. Being tall is an equivalent "skill" in basketball, in that it gives you the ability to shoot over other players. So I would have no problem with Shaq being big if it meant he was using that height advantage to elevate over his defender for a 15 foot jumper. But he's not capable of doing that, instead he changes the "spirit of the game" by making every shot a dunk from under the basket.

 

[heelmanwilm]

Theres a girl on twitter going all in on felton knowingly spreading std’s and a sexual assault. Found her on facebook and shes a cna and a grad of unc. Shes either telling the truth or shes gonna have her ass sued off for slander.

Now the sexist side of me wants to point out her fb page is loaded with pics of her in very sexy outfits and partying hard with girls in “come fuk me” attire. Nttawwt. But is it wrong for me to see irony?

 

[TarHeelNation11]

Theres a girl on twitter going all in on felton knowingly spreading std’s and a sexual assault. Found her on facebook and shes a cna and a grad of unc. Shes either telling the truth or shes gonna have her ass sued off for slander.

Now the sexist side of me wants to point out her fb page is loaded with pics of her in very sexy outfits and partying hard with girls in “come fuk me” attire. Nttawwt. But is it wrong for me to see irony?

What's a "cna"

 

[toophly1124]

Theres a girl on twitter going all in on felton knowingly spreading std’s and a sexual assault. Found her on facebook and shes a cna and a grad of unc. Shes either telling the truth or shes gonna have her ass sued off for slander.

Now the sexist side of me wants to point out her fb page is loaded with pics of her in very sexy outfits and partying hard with girls in “come fuk me” attire. Nttawwt. But is it wrong for me to see irony?

Link.

 

[toophly1124]

What's a "cna"

Certified Nurse Assistant

 

[gunslingerdick]

Link.

or it didn't happen

 

[toophly1124]

or it didn't happen

Right? You can’t come on here talking bout girls wearing “come fuk me” attire w out so much as a picture. That’s down right disrespectful to the OOTB crew.

 

[JuleZ '02 HEEL]

That’s down right disrespectful to the OOTB crew.

Sorta his mo lately tho tbh

 

[gunslingerdick]

?

 

[heelz2345]

Let me tell you a little something bout this guy!

 

[heelz2345]

Link.

I found the twitter account, it's @taylork_10

 

[toophly1124]

I found the twitter account, it's @taylork_10

On it.

 

[toophly1124]

 

[TarHeelNation11]

I found the twitter account, it's @taylork_10

She's a UNC student, a Michigan fan, and a Democrat. But she's hot.

Imagine my shock.