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Quick stuff (MSU game)...

gary-7

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Jan 27, 2003
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...and so, if Roy had told the guys, "OK, tonight I'm gonna test y'all by putting you up against a big, physical, experienced team... with the worst, most one-sided officiating imaginable"... well, he couldn't have drawn it up any better.

- Let's go ahead and get this out front: This was a horrifically officiated game --- sometimes almost comically bad --- and the way it was done was right in MSU's wheelhouse. Our guys were getting hit, and hit hard, on every possession... and on any given possession you could call out your choice among illegal screens, hooks, undercuts, blatant travels --- hell, just open the rule book to a random page and pick one. JB got hit more than once by shots that would have been Personal Fouls on a football field with no call. Early on I kept trying to get a look at just who these clowns-in-stripes were, and when they finally showed a close-up, wouldn't ya know, it's Michael mf-ing Stephens. Imagine that...

- Once I saw what was transpiring I put aside my stat sheet because this one was gonna be all about eyes, as in watching closely. If you're gonna get one of these, it's best to get it early in the season --- and in a way it had a positive side-affect in that it was gonna be a test to see how our guys would hold up and react. Suffice to say, in the first half especially, not well. MSU was able to take us out of our game. Just one example was when Kenny over-cooked a simple fast break lay-up. It was maybe the first time he didn't hafta finish thru contact and so he goes too strong in anticipation.

- My biggest game-specific concern going in was dealing with their bulk and length inside. Garrison, Sterling and Huff were just overwhelmed. The constant hard contact knocked them off their spots, but truth is they were playing timid on simple post moves. Brooks was just serving up easy shot-blocks at one point. This game also showed we're gonna have a hard time playing Small against some teams. That's the one thing that didn't go well at all on the defensive end.

- The good news is we actually played pretty good defense in our normal Hybrid lineup. Considering how many extra possessions we gave them on the other end, holding them to 60 (before garbage time) was pretty impressive. That being said I really wish Roy would have had our guys attacking with 30 and 40 in the first half like we did in the second at times. Bullies don't like to be bullied, and MSU didn't handle pressure well. On the other hand, if you can't get a zebra to recognize a simple and obvious travel in a trap, what can ya do? But again, holding them to 60 when we were as bad as we were offensively, and forcing 24 TOs is pretty stout.

- And speaking of bad... the really bad news was on the offensive end. I was disappointed in our inability to finish thru contact. Luke in particular was not his normal self. Granted, he was being undercut on most of his inside moves, but he wasn't attacking with purpose tonight... and his 3-ball once again looked steer-y. But then, pretty much the whole team couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.

- Speaking of which, that was particularly disappointing in the second half when we forced them into bad shots, clock violations or other turnovers, but just couldn't cash in. We missed open look after open look, especially just when it looked like we might make a second-half run. As I'm writing this I just glanced at the box score. Yep...it was as bad as my eyes told me. 1/18 from 3 and shoot under 25% for the game? Yikes! And hell, when we DID actually get to the line, we left multiple points there as well. We shoot the ball worth HALF a damn and we at least have a shot to pull this thing out.

- Got to throw a shout-out to "Thor". Our boy Rohlman gave a good account of himself being thrust into the fray early. Wasn't nobody gonna bully him, at least.

Welp, we all knew there would be bumps... and here was the first (literally). Good to find some things out in the early season --- that's one reason you want to play games like this. Now we gotta hope the lesson(s) were learned. 5-1 going into the ACC-Big 10 ain't too bad --- but lessee how the guys respond Wednesday.
 
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Hi gary...as always...THANK YOU...I always enjoy reading your posts...SMILE

!!!!!!!!!!!! GO TAR HEELS !!!!!!!!!!!
 
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The crazy thing is if we had capitalized on the easy layups, Maye doesnt go 2-7 from the FT line, Pinson doesnt chuck up 5 3's and we don't get some of the worst calls I've seen in a while we more than likely pull that game out.

I still don't understand how Kenny gets shoved to the ground by whoever that was for MSU and gets called for a travel.
 
All the credit goes to izzo and his team. They punched us in the face and we crumpled like a cheap suit. The whole team was intimidated. I wouldnt dream of mentioning officiating when we go 1-18 from 3 and shoot 24%. And miss at least 15 layups. If the refs gonna let u play then buckle up the chin strap and get after it! Berry and maye were horrible. Its arguably the worst performance ever offensively. But its a nov game. We’re not as bad as this. We had the big head from playing a weak schedule. Now they know whats out there. This is the down side of a weak front line. When u cant shoot you’re done for.
 
The crazy thing is if we had capitalized on the easy layups, Maye doesnt go 2-7 from the FT line, Pinson doesnt chuck up 5 3's and we don't get some of the worst calls I've seen in a while we more than likely pull that game out.

I still don't understand how Kenny gets shoved to the ground by whoever that was for MSU and gets called for a travel.
That one was the piece de resistance for that clown-car-crew. At that point we just had to start laughing at them... but trust me, if that happened in March my reaction would've been um, somewhat different... :eek:
 
All the credit goes to izzo and his team. They punched us in the face and we crumpled like a cheap suit. The whole team was intimidated. I wouldnt dream of mentioning officiating when we go 1-18 from 3 and shoot 24%. And miss at least 15 layups. If the refs gonna let u play then buckle up the chin strap and get after it! Berry and maye were horrible. Its arguably the worst performance ever offensively. But its a nov game. We’re not as bad as this. We had the big head from playing a weak schedule. Now they know whats out there. This is the down side of a weak front line. When u cant shoot you’re done for.
There's no good reason not to mention it. It was a major factor in the game and our guys didn't handle it well. Is what it is.
 
According to Adrian Atkinson, Luke Maye is the 3rd worst FT shooter in program history. It makes no sense.
Do you know why he has not updated his site since last tournament? I was really enjoying the content.

...and so, if Roy had told the guys, "OK, tonight I'm gonna test y'all by putting you up against a big, physical, experienced team... with the worst, most one-sided officiating imaginable"... well, he couldn't have drawn it up any better.

- Let's go ahead and get this out front: This was a horrifically officiated game --- sometimes almost comically bad --- and the way it was done was right in MSU's wheelhouse. Our guys were getting hit, and hit hard, on every possession... and on any given possession you could call out your choice among illegal screens, hooks, undercuts, blatant travels --- hell, just open the rule book to a random page and pick one. JB got hit more than once by shots that would have been Personal Fouls on a football field with no call. Early on I kept trying to get a look at just who these clowns-in-stripes were, and when they finally showed a close-up, wouldn't ya know, it's Michael mf-ing Stephens. Imagine that...

- Once I saw what was transpiring I put aside my stat sheet because this one was gonna be all about eyes, as in watching closely. If you're gonna get one of these, it's best to get it early in the season --- and in a way it had a positive side-affect in that it was gonna be a test to see how our guys would hold up and react. Suffice to say, in the first half especially, not well. MSU was able to take us out of our game. Just one example was when Kenny over-cooked a simple fast break lay-up. It was maybe the first time he didn't hafta finish thru contact and so he goes too strong in anticipation.

- My biggest game-specific concern going in was dealing with their bulk and length inside. Garrison, Sterling and Huff were just overwhelmed. The constant hard contact knocked them off their spots, but truth is they were playing timid on simple post moves. Brooks was just serving up easy shot-blocks at one point. This game also showed we're gonna have a hard time playing Small against some teams. That's the one thing that didn't go well at all on the defensive end.

- The good news is we actually played pretty good defense in our normal Hybrid lineup. Considering how many extra possessions we gave them on the other end, holding them to 60 (before garbage time) was pretty impressive. That being said I really wish Roy would have had our guys attacking with 30 and 40 in the first half like we did in the second at times. Bullies don't like to be bullied, and MSU didn't handle pressure well. On the other hand, if you can't get a zebra to recognize a simple and obvious travel in a trap, what can ya do? But again, holding them to 60 when we were as bad as we were offensively, and forcing 24 TOs is pretty stout.

- And speaking of bad... the really bad news was on the offensive end. I was disappointed in our inability to finish thru contact. Luke in particular was not his normal self. Granted, he was being undercut on most of his inside moves, but he wasn't attacking with purpose tonight... and his 3-ball once again looked steer-y. But then, pretty much the whole team couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.

- Speaking of which, that was particularly disappointing in the second half when we forced them into bad shots, clock violations or other turnovers, but just couldn't cash in. We missed open look after open look, especially just when it looked like we might make a second-half run. As I'm writing this I just glanced at the box score. Yep...it was as bad as my eyes told me. 1/18 from 3 and shoot under 25% for the game? Yikes! And hell, when we DID actually get to the line, we left multiple points there as well. We shoot the ball worth HALF a damn and we at least have a shot to pull this thing out.

- Got to throw a shout-out to "Thor". Our boy Rohlman gave a good account of himself being thrust into the fray early. Wasn't nobody gonna bully him, at least.

Welp, we all knew there would be bumps... and here was the first (literally). Good to find some things out in the early season --- that's one reason you want to play games like this. Now we gotta hope the lesson(s) were learned. 5-1 going into the ACC-Big 10 ain't too bad --- but lessee how the guys respond Wednesday.
Gary I love your writeups, and I'm just one person so take it with a grain of salt, but I think your commentary would be much better if you just never talked about the refs. You complain about them most games, but at some point we have to accept that refs are human and there will be bad calls in every game. It evens out most of the time. We shot our worst field goal percentage in our 108 year history, no ref can make you shoot that bad.

I'm showing up a couple hours early on Wednesday to get a decent spot in the risers for the Michigan game. Hoping to see a big turnaround!!
 
Do you know why he has not updated his site since last tournament? I was really enjoying the content.


Gary I love your writeups, and I'm just one person so take it with a grain of salt, but I think your commentary would be much better if you just never talked about the refs. You complain about them most games, but at some point we have to accept that refs are human and there will be bad calls in every game. It evens out most of the time. We shot our worst field goal percentage in our 108 year history, no ref can make you shoot that bad.

I'm showing up a couple hours early on Wednesday to get a decent spot in the risers for the Michigan game. Hoping to see a big turnaround!!
For the umpteenth time, refs are part of the game --- good, bad or in between. I don't have to do PC "coach-speak" for the media --- I'm here to call it straight, and that's exactly what I did --- and will continue to do.

The fact is we got a dose of horrible officiating tonight, and how we reacted was the biggest inside story of the game, and a take-away for the future. If someone doesn't like that being mentioned, well there's a real simple solution --- don't click on the thread.
 
The officials have never lost any game start to finish. This is a good loss to have in November, but not in March. Our players will hopefully gain strength from this loss, and be a force in March 2018. Go Heels !!
 
Refs were fine. Better than fine actually. Berry and Maye and Williams simply have to be better against teams like this that are going to give our young bigs trouble. When they play awful we won't win. Luckily, that won't happen that often.
 
Do you know why he has not updated his site since last tournament? I was really enjoying the content.

He writes some for Inside Carolina. Not sure if he's discontinued thesecondarybreak or just needs to catch up on it. Hopefully the latter, because he does awesome work.
 
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Refs were fair and I had no issue at all except for Kenny's travel as he lay on the floor.

UNC shot their worst % ever, they played awful. MSU even had 50 turnovers. UNC played like crap all over the place.

Blaming refs is really lame, especially in THIS game!
 
Thanks for the write-up Gary... though I gotta admit, the refs probably could have rolled out the red carpet and Joel and co would have tripped over themselves!

It was, plain and simple, a bad outing.

Something not mentioned - the number of easy blocks sparty had. Most of the Heels were releasing the ball very low both on lay-ups (Joel, Theo, Kenny) and in the post (Luke, Garrison, Brandon and Sterling). Not sure how this is adjusted for of if it could be an indication of.....

Fatigue.

Yes, remember, the Heels went west for the warm-up game at Stanford, and flew out two days early too. They’ve been away from home for 8-9 days now and I know with the swimmers I coach, that’s a long time to be away/playing/touring etc.
 
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Roy needs to siy our boys down and show yhem films of Tyler so yhey can see how a MAN plays thru contact. Gary, they got to learn how to play to what the xebras are calling. It wasnt biased. Just very physical.with Berry off, Luke off, an Williams off we stopd no chance.
 
Bad game for our kids.
One series in particular frosted me and staff were trying to get our kids to move...and we just didn't. We had a big, a forward and two guards all jammed together at the elbow. Standing bumping around. Our spacing was awful. Attribute that to the MSU defense. Our team just was out of sorts last night, just couldn't get going.

We will improve.
 
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- Let's go ahead and get this out front: This was a horrifically officiated game --- sometimes almost comically bad --- and the way it was done was right in MSU's wheelhouse. Our guys were getting hit, and hit hard, on every possession... and on any given possession you could call out your choice among illegal screens, hooks, undercuts, blatant travels --- hell, just open the rule book to a random page and pick one. JB got hit more than once by shots that would have been Personal Fouls on a football field with no call. Early on I kept trying to get a look at just who these clowns-in-stripes were, and when they finally showed a close-up, wouldn't ya know, it's Michael mf-ing Stephens. Imagine that...

Come on Gary, we got smoked.

Even if the officials were Kenny Smith and the UNC mascot we would have lost badly. As I've always said, pick and choose your disdain for officiating. To just always scream about it gives it less credibility when it actually costs us a game.
 
Roy needs to siy our boys down and show yhem films of Tyler so yhey can see how a MAN plays thru contact. Gary, they got to learn how to play to what the xebras are calling. It wasnt biased. Just very physical.with Berry off, Luke off, an Williams off we stopd no chance.

Yeah mikey, that is the thing really, the refs allowed a physical game and BOTH teams have to adjust to that style and we didn't. Rather than adjust we seemed to panic on the offensive end, taking really really bad shots and making the worst possible decisions on who to pass to and when or how to get your shot off when defended.
 
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Refs allowed a tough, physical game, which I was happy with. The problem was that we just got knocked around. Plus they were called for 9 more fouls than we were.

We looked like we had no business being on the same court as them. And while we are 100 times better than how we played, no amount of officiating would have changed the outcome of that game. Our freshman looked like they were scared, our best players couldn’t even make layups, and we just played horrible overall.

Roy put it best in saying it was the worst he ever saw, not once did he mention the refs.

The good news is, it’s a learning experience. I feel like it needed to happen in a sense and we will be stronger for it down the road.
 
- Got to throw a shout-out to "Thor". Our boy Rohlman gave a good account of himself being thrust into the fray early. Wasn't nobody gonna bully him, at least.
Before we got Brooks and Cam I thought we might see a good bit of Aaron. Two rebounds and decent D in 2 minutes. I think he forced a TO, too.
 
A team shooting line of 24.6%/5.6%/58.3% just isn't going to get it done, even against a high school team, nevermind a top 5 team in the country.

The difference, as it always seems to be in losses under Roy, was the 3 ball. 1-18 from 3? That's epically bad. They hit 10 threes, so the point differential behind the arc was 27 points (we lost by 18). Since the refs helped us out and put us on the line almost double the attempts they had, we got 5 points back there, but still shot terribly from the stripe as a team.

I would say burn the tape and move on to the next game, but with the uncharacteristically terrible outings from Joel, Luke, and Kenny - I think they could learn a little bit by rewatching this one.
 
Michigan States top 3 players were all in foul trouble in the 1st half. Anyone saying the refs were an issue was not watching the game. Hell, we got bailed out a ton by them.
They were called for 23 fouls vs 14 against us. So, yes, there were too many bad calls and, yes, they were hammering us, but they were also hearing the whistle a lot.

A closer-called game and we have a couple of their guys in foul trouble or fouled out. As it was called, the fouls were well-distibuted and only Langford picked up 4 fouls - on his way to a 23-point MVP performance.

The refs allowed more rough play than I like. And more than our guys knew how to handle. But I'd have to watch the game again to see if they were being partisan. And this is a game I don't really want to watch again, if you know what I mean.
 
Their bigs played 71 minutes. Our bigs played 66 minutes. That's not enough of a difference to explain how badly we got pushed around.

Ward in particular - 7 points, 8 rebounds and 4 blocks - was just a force inside. Our guys couldn't handle him.
 
I freely confess that I'm not smart enough to understand Offensive Rating but here's what Pomeroy reports for our guys in this game.

First number is their Ortg for this game. Second number is their average Ortg for the year, so far. Guys not listed didn't play enough minutes to be rated.

90 Andrew 132.7
86 Theo 101.2
72 Kenny 127.1
54 Luke 116.0
52 Joel 108.6
30 Garrison 91.5
00 BRob 108.7
00 Sterling 108.7
 
We lost the first 3 quarters. Won the 4th quarter, but not because we improved our scoring appreciably.

Hey, at least the margin got better each quarter.

----- Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 T
UNC - 10 10 13 12 45
MSU - 20 17 17 09 63
 
Despite how bad we played offensively and the lack of any real post presence or physicality... free throws, free throws, and yes, free throws. I believe we missed 10 or more maybe on 20-25 attempts? Cut the lead to 12 under 4 in the 2nd half? Dang. Those free throws are killer. Could’ve been a much different game if we capitalized on MSU’s foul trouble. Yes, the missed lay ups are inexcusable and should be a given. But free throws man. That and the whole “physically overpowered, not wanting to be out there, and lack of leadership” prolly ticked me off the most. But. It’s a new day. New season. New team. We don’t have the luxuries like last year. We don’t have a big man to bang down low in the paint... yet. What we do have is an amazing coach who develops and that’s what I feel like we’re gonna do. This team will be improved and look much different come March. Go Heels!
 
You always whine about the refs. You are the least objective person here. That's fine. Just don't DBAP when people point it out.

Cory, You always whine about people who comment on the refs. You are the least objective person here where that is concerned. That's fine. Just don't DBAP when people point it out. :p
 
I appreciate Gary's write ups post game, always very well thought out and a good read. That being said, officiating is as it always has been, very subjective. If your team wins, you rarely talk about it, maybe a play here or there. If your team loses, it's always a factor. About last night: I do think the officials let some things go, but I'm man enough to say that they also called a few marginal things that helped us or at least should have helped us specific to some calls on their top 3 players including Bridges. I don't think we were aggressive offensively or on the boards which in itself doesn't translate to getting a lot of calls. The aggressor tends to get the calls and that's why it may have looked more one sided for MSU than it actually was. We just shot very poorly and didn't compete on the offensive end. We looked very timid and out of sorts minus Theo. I got KILLED for this over the summer but I firmly believe it to be true. We have a lot of depth. We, however, lack quality depth. Quality depth is when you have pieces that can come off the bench and provide ample stop gap when your primary starter is out. We don't have that right now. We have bodies. Look at Seventh Woods, Jalek Felton, Brandon Robinson, name any assortment of our freshman bigs any night. Depending on who it is, they lack offensive skill set or defensive skill set to be productive. Hell, a few of them lack productive skill set on both ends right now. That is our issue. We have a low margin of error when Berry, Williams, Maye and eventually Cam Johnson aren't playing well.
 
Sorry, but even if you thought the refs let this one get a little too physical, it is incumbent on the players to adjust. We got smacked in the mouth and became tentative instead of being more aggressive. And you can’t beat UNC-G shooting as poorly as we did.

The outcome of this game doesn’t surprise me much, I said we might wind up with double digit losses. And MSU is very good.

This will afford Roy many teaching moments and will benefit the team in the long run. It is a lesson in toughness, poise, shot selection, etc...

We will learn from it.
 
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