I was really hoping this response was gonna be #GFY
OOTB Carolina Basketball Discussion Thread
- Thread starter carolinablue34
- Start date
All part of the geezer disinformation campaign
At least I'm not alone.
And what makes it worse is that Roy doesn't buy into the rivalry, not like K does. We've beaten them only FIVE TIMES this decade, which could be an all time low for us.
Please take back to those times. Feels like it's been freaking forever since we've had the advantage on them.
I've said repeatedly (as has @heelz2345) that I'll take the titles over the wins over Duke, but I've also said I want both. There's nothing about that that's lacking perspective.
I don't buy that for a second. Not for a second. I just think that, for a variety of factors, we just turn into shrinking violets during matchups with Duke. And more important than that, their usual style of play (3s) is usually a horrific match-up for our shortcomings (perimeter defense).
Your perspective on perspective will change as you grow older and become wiser.
I’ve grown to hate dook so much that I won’t watch any of their games (outside of playing the Heels). I’ve gotten so sick of seeing the rat berate refs, the flopping, the head whips, and all the other bullshit, that it’s just better for my well-being not to watch those ****ing bastages.
That being said.... As much as I want us to beat them, I will always prefer ACC regular season titles, final fours and natty’s over ACC tourney titles, recruiting titles, and first round exits from the big dance.
That being said.... As much as I want us to beat them, I will always prefer ACC regular season titles, final fours and natty’s over ACC tourney titles, recruiting titles, and first round exits from the big dance.
I tend to side with @gunslingerdick over @TarHeelNation11 in these arguments and the older I get, the more I respect what Roy does over K. The biggest difference is both of these schools get up for each other, but Roy treats it like another game. I can think of only a couple of times he really flipped the script or got overly involved with in-game strategy. Whereas K wants to win every game at all costs, but more so against UNC because Dean punked his as from start to finish.
K fancies himself a general and will deploy his forces by any means necessary to win. It’s why he has so many transfers and guys playing heavy minutes.
Roy believes in the process. His guys prepare for the moment and he lets them sink or swim. He uses their failures as teaching moments. Think about Roy benching Berry last year in the ACCT for what seemed like forever.
Dean Ana Wooden coached much the same way and I prefer that approach for college kids in all sports. K approaches it more like a professional coach.
It also doesn't help that the 3 ball is more emphasized than ever. You can't win very much without a few guys who can drain it from long range.
I think we have to have a mentality similar to the one the Eagles had against the Patriots two nights ago. We can't get flustered just because it's Duke. Respect the magnitude of the rivalry, but don't back down, give em everything you got and more. Give as good as you get.
Respectfully, I can't go along with this. What good did taking Berry out of last year's game against Duke in the ACC tourney do us? Other than produce a humiliating defeat? What good does it do to treat Duke like another game? It's not, we all know it. These games are how we measure each other up. Even if we have had more consistent postseason success recently, that's going to fall by the wayside quickly if Roy doesn't reel in some real big time talent with the 19 and 20 classes.
It was illuminating for Berry to understand just how important he was to this team. There was zero chance we could win it all. He needed to play smart, avoid foul trouble, and be consistent. Further, I’d be willing to bet it had a huge impact on his decision to play through bad ankle injuries.
That’s how fans measure things. Coaches measure progress and improvement. Wins are important but getting better is the key.
We’ve had tremendous success recently along with sustained consistency in the postseason. Whereas Duke has been all or bust. Give me the former. So I’d say what Roy is doing is working. Read this article. It’s spot on and has huge praise for Roy.
NCCA TOURNEY SUCCESS
We have a top 5class next year with lots of good long-term talent now.
I agree I wish we would beat Duke more but I don't it matters much at all to recruits or overall success. I think everyone would take the titles over wins versus Duke. I think we do tend to freak out at times against them. Some of it is the physical handchecking stuff we don't handle well. Not sure what the rest of it is. K has had Roy's number to an extent lately. Roy has had everyone's number lately in terms of winning when it matters though. He also always wins the second matchup when something is on the line.
If Berry had stayed in that game, we probably wouldn't have lost. Teaching him a 'lesson' or whatever the hell reason it was doesn't cut it as a viable excuse to crap out in a game against your biggest rival.
We've had tremendous postseason success in the past two years you mean.
2010- NIT
2011- Elite 8
2012- Elite 8
2013- second round
2014- second round
2015- Sweet 16
2016- Title Game
2017- Champions
So that's 5 Sweet 16s, 4 Elite 8s, 2 title games, 1 natty. Pretty good. And I give Roy all the credit in the world for that. But as I've said before, developing players and getting better doesn't do you much good when you aren't even getting players in the top 100. This 2017 class may turn out to be more of a hindrance than of help. Roy needs to alter the pitch without selling out the UNC values and that's perfectly feasible.
Teaching him a lesson isn’t important? So what if he makes those mistakes in the tourney, fouls out and we lose? What if he thinks the pain is too much and his team can get by without him? That’s why you teach so people can learn.
Pretty good? Who’s done better? You follow it by saying he isn’t getting Top 100 players which isn’t true. And he’s winning at a high level with the guys he’s getting.
Roy needs to alter his pitch? Ok. It’s clearly not working.
You guys keep saying obvious crap. Everyone would pick titles over beating their rival. That has 0 to do with the rivalry. Duke's won 5 titles since 91, it still ****ing sucks when we lose to UNC and it's still great when we beat you shit birds. Quit down playing this game like a bunch of left wing snowflakes and sack up. Bitches.
Would just like to see @carolinablue34 and I are pretty far apart on most bball issues, even though we're being lumped in as having the same view on everything.
If I'm holding your head in a gay way, what do you think you're doing to me in that scenario?
NTTAWWT
Ok this getting weird. I'm out.
Is that what Roy said? That the reason he basically threw the game was to teach JB a lesson? And how does that equate to Joel playing better in the tournament?
We are not a recruiting powerhouse like we used to be. That is indisputable. And it's catching up to us. Blind man could see it in a minute.
And yes, in order to get more elite recruits he needs to offer something different. Because clearly they're not buying what he's selling, big men in particular. Little and White are good starts but we need more.
How does Roy sitting JB so he can see his team crumble without him out there help? Is this a serious question? How does it make Joel play better? Is that a serious question? I just want to know if I’m being trolled. Holding out an athlete, especially a hyper competitive one usually gets their attention and increases their focus. @gunslingerdick am I sounding like a crazy person here?
People were saying the same thing 2 years ago. Then we lose to Duke at home (I was at that game) and people actually started questioning if Roy needed to retire. We then went on a run, won the ACCT (I was there for every game) and lost in the Championship game (I was not there, reason we lost).
Little and White aren’t enough? How many OADs do you want?
My big gripe is there are UNC fans who hate Duke more than they like UNC.
They get more happy when Duke loses than when we win.
I find that extremely weird and shitty.
They get more happy when Duke loses than when we win.
I find that extremely weird and shitty.
@TarHeelNation11 you gonna let him talk down to you like this??
That sounds like a typical moo fans feelings toward UNC.
dook is mostly irrelevant to me; I don’t give two shits about those ****tards except for when they play us. And yes, I want us to beat them just like any other team but in the end I look at the overall season, not just two games against those douche-waters.
I'm pretty much the same way. The only time I see Duke play is when we play them. Hell, I don't even know who anyone on that team is except Allen, Bagley and Carter, and I only recognize the freshmen by name. If I crossed paths with Bagley and Carter, I wouldn't even recognize them, especially Carter. I've never even seen him, so I have no idea what he looks like. I may be able to pick out Bagley if I paid enough attention. Anyway, I don't have a clue about how any of these guys play, except Allen. No clue what we're in for, but I assume a loss because that's how this decade is.
He ain't referring to me. I don't even pay attention to when Duke plays unless it's against us or if it's in the ACCT or NCAAT.
In fact, I don't think he's referring to anyone. Seems like a strawman he's created.
Warning - tl;dr
I agree. But let's not forget that Roy didn't hold Berry out as much as the phantom fouls called on him in that game did. To the larger point though, you and I seem to be on the same page in that Roy is confident enough in his ability and accomplishments that he can value teaching over piling up numbers. Sure, his job is to win basketball games. But more so at Carolina than anywhere else, he's paid to win games and create a certain culture (for perception reasons or not). Other programs can claim the same but there's more proof of Carolina forsaking immediate successes for the overall betterment of the program. Berry sitting in that ACCT game against duke was just one tiny example of how Roy (in extension of Dean) creates that culture. Personally, I love it not only from the perspective of that I think it better prepares us for long term success, but also the nobility of it and the self-confidence it shows.
The OAD model is not sustainable over a long period of time and we're finally deep enough in it to realize it. UK set the pace with the OAD model but is now faltering with it. UK fans are clamoring for Cal to go back to a traditional model now. It's not a viable long term model because of several reasons - (1) each class is different. Whereas you can ride the Anthony Davises of the world to a freshman lead title, you can't with the Kevin Knoxes of the world. There's too much discrepancy from year to year. But this only matters because of (2) once you have created this model, there's no putting the toothpaste back in the tube. Kids come to UK because they want to be OAD. So whether they're ready or not, they have essentially failed if they stay at UK for more than one year. So when they leave, the only way to have any shot the next year is to fill the gaping hole with another top flight player that, you guessed it, sees himself as OAD. And lastly, (3) the OAD model does not work in conjunction with the traditional model. People always say, "a blend of program guys with OAD stars is clearly the best model". Sure, I agree. But the two don't marry well. Because when subscribing to that model, you're looking to recruit impact guys, but only at certain positions. And then your program guys still have to be highly ranked, but not very highly ranked. So after all the qualifiers, you've whittled your pool of potential recruits down to such a small number. And then for us, for example, you go ahead and eliminate the Cali guys and the Texas guys and then you've got like 6 guys to go after. And if they feel more comfortable somewhere else, you'll end up striking out. And we haven't even discussed how the mentality of OAD guys is often diametrically opposite to the mental make up of a 4 year player. Blending the two is not an easy task and attempting to do so will undoubtedly cause chemistry problems at times. I'm not saying that OADs should never happen. But when they do, it should happen organically like it did with Marvin and Tony - guys that came under the assumption they would be in the program for a while but things shook out in a way that they could be OAD. The mentality I'm talking about is that of the guys that come in with their sights set on being OAD.
Our fans are incensed that duke is supposedly "whipping our tails" in recruiting. But the difference is that K doesn't care that this model is not sustainable for the long term. duke will be where UK is in another couple of years. But that will make no difference to k. It's more evident now that he won't care about the long term health of the duke program - he's a numbers chaser. It's evident. He wants so badly to win the championship and then retire. He thinks that scenario is owed to him.
And neither White nor Little are OAD. I've gambled on that.
Ok, let's just call them out. I assume you're talking about @TarHeelNation11 and @carolinablue34. I won't agree that they like duke losing more than UNC winning. But I do agree that there obsession with measuring ourselves against duke is annoying - especially when both guys appear to harp on the areas in which duke is beating us and gloss over the areas in which we're the king. I come from the school of being dismissive of the duke program. I prefer to concentrate on the areas where UNC is king and not really acknowledge the areas where duke beats us. That's what fans do. IMO, it's the better way to fan. "But it's not realistic". Ok. Who cares? Fans aren't realistic. And because my fandom doesn't impact the program in any way whatsoever, why wouldn't I take the approach that is most positive even if unrealistic?
I agree. But let's not forget that Roy didn't hold Berry out as much as the phantom fouls called on him in that game did. To the larger point though, you and I seem to be on the same page in that Roy is confident enough in his ability and accomplishments that he can value teaching over piling up numbers. Sure, his job is to win basketball games. But more so at Carolina than anywhere else, he's paid to win games and create a certain culture (for perception reasons or not). Other programs can claim the same but there's more proof of Carolina forsaking immediate successes for the overall betterment of the program. Berry sitting in that ACCT game against duke was just one tiny example of how Roy (in extension of Dean) creates that culture. Personally, I love it not only from the perspective of that I think it better prepares us for long term success, but also the nobility of it and the self-confidence it shows.
The OAD model is not sustainable over a long period of time and we're finally deep enough in it to realize it. UK set the pace with the OAD model but is now faltering with it. UK fans are clamoring for Cal to go back to a traditional model now. It's not a viable long term model because of several reasons - (1) each class is different. Whereas you can ride the Anthony Davises of the world to a freshman lead title, you can't with the Kevin Knoxes of the world. There's too much discrepancy from year to year. But this only matters because of (2) once you have created this model, there's no putting the toothpaste back in the tube. Kids come to UK because they want to be OAD. So whether they're ready or not, they have essentially failed if they stay at UK for more than one year. So when they leave, the only way to have any shot the next year is to fill the gaping hole with another top flight player that, you guessed it, sees himself as OAD. And lastly, (3) the OAD model does not work in conjunction with the traditional model. People always say, "a blend of program guys with OAD stars is clearly the best model". Sure, I agree. But the two don't marry well. Because when subscribing to that model, you're looking to recruit impact guys, but only at certain positions. And then your program guys still have to be highly ranked, but not very highly ranked. So after all the qualifiers, you've whittled your pool of potential recruits down to such a small number. And then for us, for example, you go ahead and eliminate the Cali guys and the Texas guys and then you've got like 6 guys to go after. And if they feel more comfortable somewhere else, you'll end up striking out. And we haven't even discussed how the mentality of OAD guys is often diametrically opposite to the mental make up of a 4 year player. Blending the two is not an easy task and attempting to do so will undoubtedly cause chemistry problems at times. I'm not saying that OADs should never happen. But when they do, it should happen organically like it did with Marvin and Tony - guys that came under the assumption they would be in the program for a while but things shook out in a way that they could be OAD. The mentality I'm talking about is that of the guys that come in with their sights set on being OAD.
Our fans are incensed that duke is supposedly "whipping our tails" in recruiting. But the difference is that K doesn't care that this model is not sustainable for the long term. duke will be where UK is in another couple of years. But that will make no difference to k. It's more evident now that he won't care about the long term health of the duke program - he's a numbers chaser. It's evident. He wants so badly to win the championship and then retire. He thinks that scenario is owed to him.
And neither White nor Little are OAD. I've gambled on that.
Ok, let's just call them out. I assume you're talking about @TarHeelNation11 and @carolinablue34. I won't agree that they like duke losing more than UNC winning. But I do agree that there obsession with measuring ourselves against duke is annoying - especially when both guys appear to harp on the areas in which duke is beating us and gloss over the areas in which we're the king. I come from the school of being dismissive of the duke program. I prefer to concentrate on the areas where UNC is king and not really acknowledge the areas where duke beats us. That's what fans do. IMO, it's the better way to fan. "But it's not realistic". Ok. Who cares? Fans aren't realistic. And because my fandom doesn't impact the program in any way whatsoever, why wouldn't I take the approach that is most positive even if unrealistic?
