Saying that a team has only been the 2nd or 3rd most successful in the country is also a ridiculous reason to criticize their strategy. Roy has been masterful, I hope nobody would question that, but Cal has been extremely good too.
SKJ transferring from Kentucky
- Thread starter dadika13
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Fat Jeff isn’t going to be paying players in Chapel Hill any more. Without him doing K’s dirty work there should be more balance in the elite players destinations.
Yep. Roy's resume since taking over at UNC beats anyone's. But so does Cal's since taking over at UK. Naturally, we'll emphasize the former. UK fans will emphasize the latter. (Duke fans will emphasize their recent championships and K's all-time resume, Kansas fans will emphasize conference success and year-to-year consistency, Villanova fans will emphasize the last 3 years, etc.)
Cal has actually had some success with his OADs. Including the regular season. Coach K and dook on the other hand, has just been a waste of time for the talent they have. That includes regular season accomplishments.
The framing thing is so interesting to me. We naturally tend to frame ourselves and our in-groups with a positive light, while looking at out-groups/enemies through a negative filter. This effects so many issues, be they sports, politics, social dynamics, etc.
How is "recruiting over" SKJ with EJ any different than Coby White potentially taking the starting PG spot from Seventh? A 5-star taking time from a slightly lower ranked junior in each case, not sure I see much difference. Yet I doubt many will be angry if Coby wins the job fairly. I am sure Seventh thought he would be starting by his junior year when he committed, and were Felton still here many thought Seventh would consider transferring. Little taking B-Rob's spot is similar.
We could so easily be one of the one-and-done schools. Roy clearly was willing to accept commitments from Zion, Shittu, Langford, Little, etc at some point.
Duke has only had multiple OAD players on 3 teams unless I'm missing a year...
2015-national championship
2017-ACC title, 2nd round loss to eventual final four team.
2018-elite 8
2011- sweet 16, Kyrie Irving came back for the tournament after missing most of the season.
2012 first round loss Austin Rivers
2013- elite 8 no OAD's
2014 first round loss Jabari Parker.
2016- sweet 16 Brandon Ingram the lone OAD.
regarding regular season success, I'd have to imagine it's easier to accomplish that in the SEC as opposed to the ACC but you are correct that Duke hasn't won the ACC regular season since 2010 I believe.
Because SKJ was a 5 Star, Top 25 recruit and got recruited over in the very class he came in with. He'd very likely be starting by now if he'd came to UNC. Woods, however, is pushing his 3rd year and has still not shown enough improvement to earn him a starting spot. (Injuries, i know. Not the point) I'm sure Roy will give him a shot to start this coming year. But if in 3 years he still can't cut the mustard, then shouldn't we play the better guy?
It's ridiculous that Cal gets a pass for playing his better guys just because he gets a bunch of freshmen talent. If we landed SKJ but played Luke Maye over him, we'd never hear the end of it from a recruiting perspective, regardless that Luke was the better player.
The PG position is crucial to our success and always has been. Look how much our team changed when Stilman took over for KM in 2012. OTOH, UK gets at least one 4-5 Star, borderline 7 foot guy nearly every year. SKJ and Woods are just not comparable situations.
So one title and one ACC tournament title. Not impressed when compared to Kentucky, UNC, or hell even Kansas.
In fairness, the SEC is a joke. Kentucky usually doesn’t have much competition.
So the barometer for impressiveness is 2 titles every 3 years or what? You're not going to like many strategies then. None of the schools you mention have done that.
My point is, for ALL the NBA talent they have gotten, they haven’t done much with it. A couple other schools have done better.
I give them more credit because the big 12 is more competitive than the SEC. Not by much, though.
They still have a title and three final fours. Dook has one title and one final four the years they had OADs. So for all the NBA talent they have had, they should have more.
So you’re saying it’s okay for Coach Roy to recruit over someone, but you have a problem with it when it’s Coach Cal?
Sorta yes, sorta no.
The Big 12 isn't a joke of a conference. A Big 12 schedule is basically impossible to come out of unscathed.
But Kansas doesn't have top-end peers like we do. They don't have to contend with UVA and Duke for the conference crown.
And here is a clue.......know most despise Cal, but few of these coaches develop NBA talent. Either they have it, or they don't. NBA recruits more on potential than present skills. See Tony Bradley from last year. But kids also see that Cal has recruited so many NBA kids that they know if they go there, they can average 10-12 a game and get a pass because there are so many other prospects in the program. As proven it is a guessing game when one plays the one and done game, but Cal has hung his hat on that approach
On your second post, try reading before making hot take assumptions next time.
As I said, I want to know why Cal gets a pass for landing top talent every year and playing the best players on the team, but we get slack for doing the exact same thing. In 2017, we heard the same spiel for giving Tony Bradley >20 minutes. Yet when Cal, K and others have their Boldens, SKJs, Poythress's, and others of the world (you know, all Elite guys with OAD potential that end up being multi-year player or transfer out?) no one bats an eye at them. You don't get to have it both ways. So which is it?
If we start Woods next year, the story is how Roy started an upperclassmen over an Elite Freshman. Yet if we start White, it's that we recruited over Woods. Make up your minds.
The best players that earn playing time should play, regardless of the team. This isn't tee ball, it's very high level college athletics. If Woods doesn't like playing behind a freshman then he should bust his but in practice and earn playing time.
Really? Roy plays a 10 deep and at times even more rotation, every kid on Roy's roster gets a shot to play. Recruiting over is stranding a kid that was expected to be starter level to mop up minutes. SJK should have got out of Lexington after his frosh season! He really needed a program that develops players as opposed to one that just rolls the ball out and calls it dribble drive...
Yes but to develop those that are not yet ready to be big time producers you have to play them, no excuse for K playing a 6 man rotation and then crying about having little depth!
I agree, it's one of his faults for sure but I wasn't really talking about that in particular just that playing time should be earned in general.
He was ranked a bit higher than Woods, though the difference is not gigantic. #23 vs #45 or so. Both are in very similar situations, juniors who've not done that well and may lose a starting job to a freshman.
If that's not good enough for you, look at Theo and Hicks as sophomores. They got 18 and 14 minutes, respectively. Pretty much the same as SKJ's 14 minutes per game, yet no one was screaming about how they were being handled. And they were both ranked higher than SKJ as prospects.
Exact same as SKJ. He had 9 points an 8 rebounds per 40 minutes last year, with 3 turnovers per assist. He's been totally mediocre. Manley has already easily outshone anything SKJ has done.
Yes... Have you read my argument? I'm the one arguing to play the better guy. "Recruiting over" someone is not a factor to me. The best players play, and players don't get starting spots reserved. I don't see anything wrong in how Cal has used SKJ. We should be looking to add talent, always.
Huh? Luke would easily play over SKJ. Not even a question. He's miles ahead of SKJ on the court right now. Regardless, I don't think this is relevant. The best players will play, SKJ simply hasn't been good enough.
I don't know who had him ranked at #45, because Woods was #59 on ESPN, 58th on 247. Scout has since nuked their rankings, but I doubt he was any higher. If you want to be picky and average it, that's 54. So about a 21 spot gap. For reference, that's about the difference between Brice Johnson and Joel James.
Are you kidding? "Elite" 5 Stars not getting starter minute day 1 at UNC has been held against us for years. Especially on the recruiting trail during the early parts of the decade when OAD was the "way of the future" and Cal had the OAD scene on lockdown. The narrative that UNC is a "multi year school" or that "we don't play our freshmen" is so set in stone for us (see Shittu's comments on us a while back), that Roy had to go against that narrative almost more than the scandal.
You can't get better if you don't play. He played literally half a season (16 games) for his freshman year. He didn't even see the court after January. What 5 * recruit would have done that here without an injury? The UK fan excuse is always "well he had some undisclosed illness at some point in the season". Yet he saw a total of zero minutes even after he recovered? Nah, not buying that.
You can say what you want about SKJ's performance or claim bias, but I certainly believe under Roy, he could have been solid for us if he transferred and had that year to sit and learn our system. Roy's track record with bigs speaks for itself.
Who's the last non OAD big guy that Cal "developed"? And I'm not talking guys like Wiltjer or WCS, who simply didn't start because of a stacked roster or decided to return when they could've been drafted. The ones that aren't Anthony Davis or KAT end up as Marcus Lee.
You said: "How is "recruiting over" SKJ with EJ any different than Coby White potentially taking the starting PG spot from Seventh?" I don't know the context of pln's post, but there's clearly a huge difference in those situations. As I tried to point out:
SKJ, EJ, and Coby are all 5* players in one or more rankings. At the very least, All in the Top 25. Seventh wasn't.
SKJ had to compete with 2 other Elite bigs in his same class. Seventh didn't.
I agree with playing the better player, but that's just a bad comparison to make. Fact is, some kids will get recruited over. Especially at elite schools. That's simply a risk of the game. The negative connotations are the problem rather than the act.
But i'm also pointing out the hypocrisy for when we "played the better guy" in the past. I don't think other fanbases should be able to come here and "spindoctor" the narrative when it better suits their personal view. As @HoneyMoon155 did
Of course PT has top be earned at every program in the country but those that are developing you have to find ways for them to get court time in real games, that is where they really develop in to contributors. I would think that even a duke fan would agree, a kid like Bolden, even Jeter have spent way more time on the bench, when you use a 6 or 7 man rotation. I do not think it a stretch at all to believe BOTH those kids would have got solid PT if not as frosh certainly by their soph seasons and would be if not starters for us right now very key reserves. Flip that and I do not believe Luke, Manley, Brooks would have got anything but mop up minutes if even that is less than a minute at duke (K leaves his starters in for deep minutes even in blow outs).
When you do not develop them with playing time as frosh and sophs they will not be there as needed experienced contributors as Jr and Sr. So limiting your bench rotations artificially lowers your team experience levels. Vrank for example was little more than a freshman playing time wise, he may be practice fodder but in game experience he has little to bring to the table, sad, he was a guy that could have stepped in with experience when the freshmen showed their freshman lack of experience. Brice, Hicks, Meeks, Kenny, Luke IMO would not have become the players they were or are for us without the invaluable PT they got early on. Just IMO...
Woods was #48 on the RSCI composite. Please don't use one examples as the difference between two rankings. The gap between Brice and Joel is huge, the difference between the average #23 and #48 is probably not that big.
You're replying with all sorts of things that I didn't claim, so let me be clear what I am saying: "recruiting over" someone should not be criticized. The best players should play, and no one should have a guaranteed spot.
I'm not going to try to pick out examples of Cal developing guys or us helping players. Those things have nothing to do with my claim.
I agree. We have way to many homers on this board who get to make other teams and coaches look bad and all it does is looks bad on UNC fans. Why’s it so hard to give credit where it’s due? Gets pretty embarrassing.
Dude, I provided you with 2 different outlets that showed that Woods is ranked lower than you claim, yet you use only one and claim that it proves your point? That's nonsense. I've never seen anyone use the RSCI, but if you actually looked at any of these rankings, including the very one you provided, the gap between Brice actually isn't that big.
247 Composite - Brice (45), Joel James (61) - 16 Spot Difference
247 Natl - (48), James (57) - 9 Spot Difference
ESPN - Brice 33, James (60) - 26 Spot Difference
RSCI - Brice (48), James (60) - 12 Spot Difference
And the actual rating on RSCI is: SKJ - 22, Woods - 40, which makes it an 18 Spot Difference. Case and point
You said the best players should play, and I agree. You said Coby White coming in to play next year over Seventh Woods is the same as Cal bringing in EJ to play over SKJ. And that's false. Simple as that.
"And I'm not talking guys like Wiltjer or WCS, who simply didn't start because of a stacked roster or decided to return when they could've been drafted."
This is not what I meant at all. Let me try to say in a clearer way:
The gap between the outcomes of Brice and Joel is huge. Obviously the gap in rankings is not. My point is the typical outcome of a #25 and #45 ranked player is not that different, hence my comparison of Seventh and EJ.
The ranking I was trying to cite was the 247 composite. I thought that was called the RSCI, my mistake if it's not. The composite seems very widely used, and looking at Seventh's player page I see a #48 ranking. I believe that's the composite.
My main point: coaches can and should "recruit over" players if it makes the team better. Roy essentially has with Seventh (by adding Felton and Coby) just as Cal did with SKJ. I totally concede that SKJ is ranked higher, though the difference is not huge (about 20 spots) and both are very talented players so were just used as examples.
Coby isn't a point guard. Jalek committed to UNC before Seventh did.
Please, tell me more about how Seventh was "recruited over". You're literally rewriting history.
It's amazing how many posters on here go to such lengths to trash our program.
Please, tell me more about how Seventh was "recruited over". You're literally rewriting history.
It's amazing how many posters on here go to such lengths to trash our program.
I can't wait til Seventh is awesome next year, and you all have to sit here and scramble to nitpick his game to keep up your seventh woods hate.
I don't get why criticizing our worst offensive player from the last two years is unreasonable. It's not personal.
If he stops being terrible (on offense; his defense is very good), he'll get a lot less criticism.
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That's fair.
I was a bit nitpicky on the example, but you got my point.
Literally no one is hating on Woods. Stop with the strawmen.
He hasn't played. He was good prior to his injury last year.
He also was not our worst offensive player last year. Let alone the last two years.
Between this board and premium about half the fans here are hating on him.
Many have stated we can't win with him. That he needs to not play next year. We need to recruit a new PG so we have one next year. Yadda yadda.
I'm hating on the way he's played the past 2 seasons. I don't think that's unjustified.
??? I've yet to trash our program at all. I'm simply pointing out that we are adding guys to compete with players already on the team. I support the practice and am glad UNC does it. "Recruiting over" someone is not something I worry about, and I don't think our coaches do either. The best players will play.
